Worthwhile discussions

[Potshot2023]

Is it just me, or do others agree that these forums seem to have degenerated into something of a seller/buyer mart rather than useful discussions about our sport and how to advance it? For starters, is there any appetite about a discussion around the possibility of including Sporter discipline in the National teams agenda?

[Drop shot]

I'd agree.... I think it's a complex question that is multi faceted and a bit of a snake eating itself sort of situation.

I'd wager that the lack of discussion around the sport and how to advance it here is a reflection of the conversations that are happening externally. Really. They aren't.

F-Class peaked 20 years ago. The equipment hasn't changed. The disciplines haven't changed. The targets haven't changed. There's nothing to really discuss that hasn't been said before. It has completely stagnated.

Because of the stagnation, the NRAA/ state RA's are in attrition. They aren't just struggling to grow, they are struggling to maintain their current numbers. There's few to no recruitment drives, the disciplines don't cater to or interest young people, modern shooting has surpassed what F-Class is doing, and the average age seemingly being 60-70, means every year, more and more people are dropping off the perch or retiring due to health. So there's fewer people to have the sorts of discussions that might be engaging in a forum setting.

The biggest issue though is the resistance to change. There's no adaptation to the disciplines or new challenges, and when people try to bring these things in, they are shouted down, bullied out, and simply go elsewhere.

F-Class was the premier long range discipline in the 90s and early 2000s, but with the lessons learned in long range shooting from the GWOT, there's a mountain of information, shooting styles, firearm types, pieces of equipment that are now available at a consumer level that makes shooting a whole lot more complex and interesting than F-Class.

Instead of embracing this information and technology and adapting to change, the organisations built a wall around themselves and their ranges, closed their eyes and stuck their fingers in their ears. They made it hard to enter into, made being there unbearable for new younger people due to attitude, made any change incredibly hard, and actively have worked to kill any attempt at a shift in in growing the sports or disciplines. Look at how sporting rifle is being treated. Rock up to a range with a brake or try to feed from a magazine. Can I use my kestrel? What's mil relation formula? What's gun no? What's WIDS? What's Sine for a 1330 wind? What's temp shift zero and how do you work it out to make that first shot impact in the X at 1000.... I'd wager 99% don't know in F-Class but you can hit a different range where new gear is welcome and a lot of shooters know all this stuff.....F-Class, you don't need to know any of that stuff. Fire 2 Sighters to figure out what the variable is, dial the correction off the shotmarker, then watch a flag for wind and tap the trigger. It's just not relevant anymore. People are smarter, kids have ADHD as a default now. Firing the same 10 shots, at the same target, from the same position, on the same range, at the same distance with the same gear..... I don't know how F-Class shooters do it for 20 years.

Clubs are predominantly responsible for this attitude, but leadership would cause a shift a direction of growth. Unfortunately, instead of building points of entry into the sport, leadership just walks around banging in more "keep out" signs.

It's a culture issue, and every disenfranchised person who leaves tells 100 of their mates how bad it was, and the reputation spreads, and less people join.....

I don't know how you fix it, but I do know a lot of opportunities to fix it have been absolutely squandered.

[dazza284]

Is it just me, or do others agree that these forums seem to have degenerated into something of a seller/buyer mart rather than useful discussions about our sport and how to advance it? For starters, is there any appetite about a discussion around the possibility of including Sporter discipline in the National teams agenda?

I blame 2 things for what you mentioned one is face ache and then the lack af intelligence in the last 2 or 3 generations thanks to the way THEY indoctrinate our children and not educate them

[Tim L]

I'd agree.... blah blah

An interesting perspective, that certainly appears to be from the outside looking in. There are quite a few reasons why things don't change or only change slowly. 1 major factor is the legeslation behind range management and restrictions on range use. In some cases it's not that people don't want to adopt new ideas, it's that they can't. Most NRAA ranges are required to operate under SSRs and for the most part are restricted to shooting prone with all bullets going from the firing point to the corrisponding target. No crossfiring, no targets set up 50m in front of the firing point of the day, all very restricted in order to comply with legeslation.
No one disagrees change and evolution is necessary, but it doesn't have to happen in a generation. Change that fast and you go extinct for other reasons. We should probably also remember Australias greatest exports (beyond that Fosters piss) Rugby, swimming and, , shooting!
If you've got a downer on FClass 2 x gold and current silver World champs, lord knows where the TR shooters sit in your estimations. Individual World Champ, u25 world champs, vets world champs and TR world champs. I mean it would be great to see some version of Sporter hunter/PC* go international, I'm sure we would excell. But writing off the skill and knowledge held by TR and F class shooters as stagnant and non transferable is just a display of arrogant ignorance. It's not newbies taking the PC* bling it's all the TR and Fclass shooters that don't want to wear the bondage jacket or carry the power lifting gear any more. I'd love to have a crack at PRS but for all the realestate in N QLD there's nowhere to shoot it.

[Tim L]

Is it just me, or do others agree that these forums seem to have degenerated into something of a seller/buyer mart rather than useful discussions about our sport and how to advance it? For starters, is there any appetite about a discussion around the possibility of including Sporter discipline in the National teams agenda?

Oddly enough this isn't the first rodeo. All the same points were being made by Fclass. How TR was a bygone pasttime and how we get into Queens. Then State teams. It happened, and it will happen for Sporter too, probably quicker. But slow ya roll just a bit, the rules aren't really set yet or if they are, only just. I wouldn't be surprised to see PCO shooting a 6 ring and PCS remaining on a 5.
As for the other discussions, well apparently us olde worlde Fclass shooters have nothing to offer the up and comming. I mean I don't even know which mill system this new generation uses so it's moa all the way for me. I've been told I do all my load development wrong anyway so I've not really got much to offer.

[Tim L]

F-Class peaked 20 years ago .

Really?

Sorry, I'm on nightshift and this is the only thread of substance

[John Weigel]

Gee, are we talking about the same sport that I’m involved in? I guess I don’t have the context of 20 years ago, when F Class arose, but my impression at the current point in time is that it is a vibrant, competitive, and fun discipline with a growing focus on achieving that elusive competitive edge. I’ve attended a lot of comps over these past two years, and witnessed a range of attitudes from disappointment and perhaps mild disgruntlement to much more widespread serious commitment from competitors and range officers, with participant numbers at the big gigs bursting at the seams. The level of professionalism is if anything a bit intimidating for newish shooters like myself. I do understand how, at a personal level,that participants in any relatively simple sport who have been at it for decades, who indeed participated in the birth of the discipline might struggle to continue bearing down for ever-contracting areas of potential improvement, or perhaps even for satisfaction at placing high in well-attended comps. But I can attest to the alternate reality of so many of the friends I’ve made in the sport - we are still hopelessly falling down the proverbial rabbit-hole of shooting precision and understanding the wind, and feeling lucky to be provided with opportunity to participate! My own club is growing in leaps and bounds. There are a dozen alternative things I might pursue instead (not golf!), including other shooting disciplines, but at this stage F-class has much to offer.

[Matt P]

I'd agree.... I think it's a complex question that is multi faceted and a bit of a snake eating itself sort of situation.

I'd wager that the lack of discussion around the sport and how to advance it here is a reflection of the conversations that are happening externally. Really. They aren't.

F-Class peaked 20 years ago. The equipment hasn't changed. The disciplines haven't changed. The targets haven't changed. There's nothing to really discuss that hasn't been said before. It has completely stagnated.

Because of the stagnation, the NRAA/ state RA's are in attrition. They aren't just struggling to grow, they are struggling to maintain their current numbers. There's few to no recruitment drives, the disciplines don't cater to or interest young people, modern shooting has surpassed what F-Class is doing, and the average age seemingly being 60-70, means every year, more and more people are dropping off the perch or retiring due to health. So there's fewer people to have the sorts of discussions that might be engaging in a forum setting.

The biggest issue though is the resistance to change. There's no adaptation to the disciplines or new challenges, and when people try to bring these things in, they are shouted down, bullied out, and simply go elsewhere.

F-Class was the premier long range discipline in the 90s and early 2000s, but with the lessons learned in long range shooting from the GWOT, there's a mountain of information, shooting styles, firearm types, pieces of equipment that are now available at a consumer level that makes shooting a whole lot more complex and interesting than F-Class.

Instead of embracing this information and technology and adapting to change, the organisations built a wall around themselves and their ranges, closed their eyes and stuck their fingers in their ears. They made it hard to enter into, made being there unbearable for new younger people due to attitude, made any change incredibly hard, and actively have worked to kill any attempt at a shift in in growing the sports or disciplines. Look at how sporting rifle is being treated. Rock up to a range with a brake or try to feed from a magazine. Can I use my kestrel? What's mil relation formula? What's gun no? What's WIDS? What's Sine for a 1330 wind? What's temp shift zero and how do you work it out to make that first shot impact in the X at 1000.... I'd wager 99% don't know in F-Class but you can hit a different range where new gear is welcome and a lot of shooters know all this stuff.....F-Class, you don't need to know any of that stuff. Fire 2 Sighters to figure out what the variable is, dial the correction off the shotmarker, then watch a flag for wind and tap the trigger. It's just not relevant anymore. People are smarter, kids have ADHD as a default now. Firing the same 10 shots, at the same target, from the same position, on the same range, at the same distance with the same gear..... I don't know how F-Class shooters do it for 20 years.

Clubs are predominantly responsible for this attitude, but leadership would cause a shift a direction of growth. Unfortunately, instead of building points of entry into the sport, leadership just walks around banging in more "keep out" signs.

It's a culture issue, and every disenfranchised person who leaves tells 100 of their mates how bad it was, and the reputation spreads, and less people join.....

I don't know how you fix it, but I do know a lot of opportunities to fix it have been absolutely squandered.

Glad I haven't shot against you, with all that knowledge and sniper skills F Class would be so easy, 60.10 every time. None of us mere mortals would stand a chance !!!

[Drop shot]

Glad I haven't shot against you, with all that knowledge and sniper skills F Class would be so easy, 60.10 every time. None of us mere mortals would stand a chance !!!

Oh well indeed you are. I reincarnated as Chris Kyle BEFORE he died. I'm so good that my bullets go through the target and patch up their OWN hole. I never worry about the sun getting in my eyes because it knows better and the only time the wind effects my bullet is to help it go through the X-Ring in the very, VERY rare occasion that I throw a shot... but that's usually down to bullet imperfection, not mine.

But it's not really about skill, it's more about the fact that there's more to think about and apply than what F-Class offers. Modern people want modern firearms and modern shooting. F-Class doesn't cater to that. Sporting tried, but it's an uphill battle and though some clubs are doing awesome things to bring in people and get them on the line, they are the exception, not the rule. Most clubs don't like sporter. So that option of a field practical class is lost. Just look at the advice given in the latest question about sporting class. Get rid of your MRAD scope, get MOA. Get rid of your brake. Get a sled because mag feeding is an issue.... instead of finding ways to adapt, the sport finds ways to hamstring and lock in the format and force compliance with the status quo.

Think of it as; You're still playing cup and ball in an era of PlayStation.

You might be the GREATEST cup and ball player in the entire world.... but not a lot of people want to play cup and ball anymore.
You can LOVE cup and ball, and attend all the cup and ball OPMs, and buy all the cup and ball merch, with all your cup and ball friends.... but it's niche.
And if you're not going to grow with the tech and knowledge and gear..... well.... you're not going to get new people in, and if you don't have new people, you're going to disappear.

[John Weigel]

What?! A cup AND a ball? All I got was a cup! No wonder I'm struggling to catch up with the big boys.

[PeteFox]

I don't get to see posts from Dip stick unless someone quotes him.
Unfortunately not a bot, but deserves the same treatment

[Drop shot]

I don't get to see posts from Dip stick unless someone quotes him.
Unfortunately not a bot, but deserves the same treatment

ooooh pete's just mad that i caught him with a smurf account and called him on it lol. I KNOW IT'S YOU PETE!!!

Look, I'm not saying that the sport HAS to change to cater to new people and new things. Or that people should stop doing what they like. But the reality is that the associations are falling down, i'm just saying some of why that is.

You don't have to like it, but you're all in a dilly of a pickle of a jam.

[Redhawk]

Oh well indeed you are. I reincarnated as Chris Kyle BEFORE he died. I'm so good that my bullets go through the target and patch up their OWN hole. I never worry about the sun getting in my eyes because it knows better and the only time the wind effects my bullet is to help it go through the X-Ring in the very, VERY rare occasion that I throw a shot... but that's usually down to bullet imperfection, not mine.

I think I can see why wherever you are the numbers will decline. Good luck.

[Downes Equestrian]

Interesting thread.
I started in target rifle as a lad back in the early seventies and then moved onto to other sports.
I came back into shooting 3 years ago through the sporter division. The sport back in the day was massive. Not now and seems to me the only division that is growing is Sporter. I understand it was initially introduced to be a feeder for the other divisions, but it now has become much more than that.
If we do not embrace Sporter and treat it as an equal to the other divisions, it will mean clubs will fold over time. the dominant demographic on the range is older shooters and we do need to change this. PRS and other shooting sports are growing. I only know the scene here in Queensland, clubs such as Beaudesert, Ipswich and Muckadilla have massive sporter membership. At the Mayday OPM this year nearly half the shooters were in Sporter.
any shooter who roles up to our club is made welcome. Have a muzzle break! no worries we will put a barricade up to protect other shooters. but any shooter who try's and does not come back is a loss to our club and the sport.
So back to the original post on this thread, should we be expanding the concept. Definitely. the QRA recently ran Sporter at the Kings which was great. Our club would probably have folded if not for sporter.

[Drop shot]

I'd agree.... blah blah

I'd love to have a crack at PRS but for all the realestate in N QLD there's nowhere to shoot it.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/411826609301153
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100089170997610
https://www.facebook.com/Precision.Rifle.QLD

You got options mate, but ack they might be a bit spread out