Rifle Suitability
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Rifle Suitability
Hi all,
I have a question and was after some opinions. Rule 23.3 mentions features or attachments that would put the rifle into other matches but it doesn't list them. All of the other rules don't mention features either. Is there a list hiding somewhere? There are plenty of factory rifles that come in chassis that have features that a lot of hunting style timber stocked rifles don't have, ie. adjustable butts, adjustable cheeks, multiply bipod locations, thumbrests, etc. All of these features are pretty much standard in PRS rifles now.
CHAPTER 23
SPORTING/HUNTING DISCIPLINE
23.3 Any rifle bought as a standard factory-made practical walk around
sporting/hunting/varmint rifle and without the features or attachments that
would place it in the style of a target, match or service rifle, and which complies
with the following conditions:
23.3.1 Weight: Not greater than 6.5 kg (14.3lbs.), including any telescopic sight or
bipod.
Looking at the above my McMillan Tub Rifle would comply with all of the requirements other than barrel length, mine is a 6XC and the factory barrel is longer. than 26". The factory 308 barrels did come in with shorter options and would comply. I understand the intension of the rules and agree this class shouldn't allow rifles like the Tubb gun but the way i read the rules i cant see where it bans it.
All of that being said, i bought a Howa Mini 223 (and Oceania Precision) to play in this class with so it doesn't really effect me. Its just when there are holes in the rules people will find them.
I have a question and was after some opinions. Rule 23.3 mentions features or attachments that would put the rifle into other matches but it doesn't list them. All of the other rules don't mention features either. Is there a list hiding somewhere? There are plenty of factory rifles that come in chassis that have features that a lot of hunting style timber stocked rifles don't have, ie. adjustable butts, adjustable cheeks, multiply bipod locations, thumbrests, etc. All of these features are pretty much standard in PRS rifles now.
CHAPTER 23
SPORTING/HUNTING DISCIPLINE
23.3 Any rifle bought as a standard factory-made practical walk around
sporting/hunting/varmint rifle and without the features or attachments that
would place it in the style of a target, match or service rifle, and which complies
with the following conditions:
23.3.1 Weight: Not greater than 6.5 kg (14.3lbs.), including any telescopic sight or
bipod.
Looking at the above my McMillan Tub Rifle would comply with all of the requirements other than barrel length, mine is a 6XC and the factory barrel is longer. than 26". The factory 308 barrels did come in with shorter options and would comply. I understand the intension of the rules and agree this class shouldn't allow rifles like the Tubb gun but the way i read the rules i cant see where it bans it.
All of that being said, i bought a Howa Mini 223 (and Oceania Precision) to play in this class with so it doesn't really effect me. Its just when there are holes in the rules people will find them.
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Seddo
Moe City Rifle Club
Seddo
Moe City Rifle Club
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Re: Rifle Suitability
Unfortunately there will always be those out there who will seek to win at all costs in their search for personal glory. Making the rules overly restrictive creates additional issues with people having to decipher the intent of the rule maker. It’s not always easy to put something into words so that the intent of it is unable to be taken in a different way. The way around this may be defining the rifles as being “Mass produced”, but again you run into issues trying to define what is allowable. Do we restrict it to manufacturers, say, savage, Remington, ruger, howa, marlin etc and then specify they must not be from the custom shop or have had any additional custom work done to them. Do we restrict them to the original barrels, stocks, available calibers etc. or do we restrict entry to those who are new to the sport and do not have any previous competition in other disciplines, so that only new shooters are able to compete? It’s a tough one.
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Re: Rifle Suitability
23.2 Introduction: This section is designed to allow standard shop bought sporting type rifles to be used on NRAA rifle ranges. The prime purpose for its introduction is to encourage participation, rather than competition and to foster membership.
As an RO, I would be judging the bona fides of a shooter's equipment against this. It's a means of attracting newbies to our type of shooting without the need for them to re-equip until they're drawn into the game. It's also there to allow us to shoot our hunting guns without the need to compete against world champions.
As an RO, I would be judging the bona fides of a shooter's equipment against this. It's a means of attracting newbies to our type of shooting without the need for them to re-equip until they're drawn into the game. It's also there to allow us to shoot our hunting guns without the need to compete against world champions.
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Re: Rifle Suitability
As I said, I understand the intention but the rules don’t make it easy. There will always be people that want to use muzzle brakes and/or magazines, I guess this is all they have.
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Seddo
Moe City Rifle Club
Seddo
Moe City Rifle Club
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Re: Rifle Suitability
Seddo wrote:As I said, I understand the intention but the rules don’t make it easy. There will always be people that want to use muzzle brakes and/or magazines, I guess this is all they have.
23.3.5 Muzzle Brakes: Muzzle Brakes are permitted, subject to permission by the Organising Body/Range Officer and provided they are allowed under the Range Standing Orders.
You just stirring, mate?
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Re: Rifle Suitability
I think because its not intended to be competitive, the rules don't need to be as detailed and precise as for F-Class etc. And ROs shouldn't be too concerned about consistency of allowed specs either. So if you have something that isn't obviously "illegal" in the class, go for it. Personally, I think it's not appropriate to run major competitions in S/H Discipline. Best to wait until it matures and then develop more detailed allowed specs for competition.
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Re: Rifle Suitability
AlanF wrote:I think because its not intended to be competitive, the rules don't need to be as detailed and precise as for F-Class etc. And ROs shouldn't be too concerned about consistency of allowed specs either. So if you have something that isn't obviously "illegal" in the class, go for it. Personally, I think it's not appropriate to run major competitions in S/H Discipline. Best to wait until it matures and then develop more detailed allowed specs for competition.
Or perhaps a maiden class like campdrafting?
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Re: Rifle Suitability
johnk wrote:Seddo wrote:As I said, I understand the intention but the rules don’t make it easy. There will always be people that want to use muzzle brakes and/or magazines, I guess this is all they have.
23.3.5 Muzzle Brakes: Muzzle Brakes are permitted, subject to permission by the Organising Body/Range Officer and provided they are allowed under the Range Standing Orders.
You just stirring, mate?
Not stirring but there will be some people muzzle brakes that will try this class and will probably stay there as there is no other class for brakes which means its not a starter class for them.
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Seddo
Moe City Rifle Club
Seddo
Moe City Rifle Club
Re: Rifle Suitability
A little over two years ago our local club membership dropped down to two or three active members who were lucky to get to shoot twice a year.
The club was about to close. We decided to shoot what is now basically the s/h class. We called it bush class! Any rifle under 8mm, with or without muzzle brakes. No more than 5 rounds loaded in a mag at a time.
We made a target that an off the shelf rifle could hit. Course of fire was 5 shots in your own time. 5 shots in 30 seconds. Then 5 shots at a cut out of a 60kg pig. (2 in the head & 3 in the body) then for the last 5 shots we held a rabbit target up on a stick for 5 exposures of 4 seconds each in three random positions.
Yes this might sound strange to an old school full bore shooter but it saved our club. We now have over 30 members and we shoot three Sundays a month with normally at least a dozen attending.
What I am trying to say is leave the “rules” relaxed for the sporting/hunter class. It is a fun class and it also can get competitive. The weight restriction is the hardest rule to comply with.
If the muzzle break blast is a concern, do what we did and make a 400mm high wooden paling barricade we place between shooters on the mound.
As we have seen it has brought a lot of new members in.
Last weekend we shot 800yd f-class. Ten shooters and only three f-class rifles! This weekend is a 900yd fclass shoot and I would bet we get the same numbers again.
Six months ago we only had one f class gun in the club, now we have 3.
S/H class is a good step into the sport, so my advice is make the class welcome and make room for it at the open shoots. You may find you club membership will grow.
Dave
The club was about to close. We decided to shoot what is now basically the s/h class. We called it bush class! Any rifle under 8mm, with or without muzzle brakes. No more than 5 rounds loaded in a mag at a time.
We made a target that an off the shelf rifle could hit. Course of fire was 5 shots in your own time. 5 shots in 30 seconds. Then 5 shots at a cut out of a 60kg pig. (2 in the head & 3 in the body) then for the last 5 shots we held a rabbit target up on a stick for 5 exposures of 4 seconds each in three random positions.
Yes this might sound strange to an old school full bore shooter but it saved our club. We now have over 30 members and we shoot three Sundays a month with normally at least a dozen attending.
What I am trying to say is leave the “rules” relaxed for the sporting/hunter class. It is a fun class and it also can get competitive. The weight restriction is the hardest rule to comply with.
If the muzzle break blast is a concern, do what we did and make a 400mm high wooden paling barricade we place between shooters on the mound.
As we have seen it has brought a lot of new members in.
Last weekend we shot 800yd f-class. Ten shooters and only three f-class rifles! This weekend is a 900yd fclass shoot and I would bet we get the same numbers again.
Six months ago we only had one f class gun in the club, now we have 3.
S/H class is a good step into the sport, so my advice is make the class welcome and make room for it at the open shoots. You may find you club membership will grow.
Dave
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Re: Rifle Suitability
If the aim was to truly attract new members then it's all off mark anyway as far as "PRS" style shooters are concerned.
There would not be a single PRS rifle in Australia that weighs 6.5kg or less, typical weight is 8-11kg
As for muzzle brakes, there is simply a huge misunderstanding of their purpose for hunters and rifle competitors that use them. They are THE key to spotting trace and point of impact. Without them the user does not have the information to make corrections (vital for the hunter to make an ethical shot).
After my rifle and scope(obviously), the next most important equipment is the brake. It allows watching trace and impacts possible.
For straight target shooters, F Class etc, tell everyone at next weekends meet there will be no target markers, no electronic targets available and they can't use their front rest. Hence they will have no feedback on POI, little idea on where the round went.
Not many will come back the following meet will they.
If clubs really do want more members it's easy;
nominate a time before or after the main target shoots where people can use "hunter" or PRS" systems and say "these couple of hours are for those that wish to use brakes, etc. If you want to blast yourself go nuts...."
To give everyone an idea of the demand that is out there for access to shoot hunter/PRS style, an event was held second half of last year that has been mentioned on this forum before.
It sold out in 8 minutes.
Entry was $400
There would not be a single PRS rifle in Australia that weighs 6.5kg or less, typical weight is 8-11kg
As for muzzle brakes, there is simply a huge misunderstanding of their purpose for hunters and rifle competitors that use them. They are THE key to spotting trace and point of impact. Without them the user does not have the information to make corrections (vital for the hunter to make an ethical shot).
After my rifle and scope(obviously), the next most important equipment is the brake. It allows watching trace and impacts possible.
For straight target shooters, F Class etc, tell everyone at next weekends meet there will be no target markers, no electronic targets available and they can't use their front rest. Hence they will have no feedback on POI, little idea on where the round went.
Not many will come back the following meet will they.
If clubs really do want more members it's easy;
nominate a time before or after the main target shoots where people can use "hunter" or PRS" systems and say "these couple of hours are for those that wish to use brakes, etc. If you want to blast yourself go nuts...."
To give everyone an idea of the demand that is out there for access to shoot hunter/PRS style, an event was held second half of last year that has been mentioned on this forum before.
It sold out in 8 minutes.
Entry was $400
Going broke one primer at a time
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Re: Rifle Suitability
MarkS wrote:If the aim was to truly attract new members then it's all off mark anyway as far as "PRS" style shooters are concerned.
There would not be a single PRS rifle in Australia that weighs 6.5kg or less, typical weight is 8-11kg
As for muzzle brakes, there is simply a huge misunderstanding of their purpose for hunters and rifle competitors that use them. They are THE key to spotting trace and point of impact. Without them the user does not have the information to make corrections (vital for the hunter to make an ethical shot).
After my rifle and scope(obviously), the next most important equipment is the brake. It allows watching trace and impacts possible.
For straight target shooters, F Class etc, tell everyone at next weekends meet there will be no target markers, no electronic targets available and they can't use their front rest. Hence they will have no feedback on POI, little idea on where the round went.
Not many will come back the following meet will they.
If clubs really do want more members it's easy;
nominate a time before or after the main target shoots where people can use "hunter" or PRS" systems and say "these couple of hours are for those that wish to use brakes, etc. If you want to blast yourself go nuts...."
To give everyone an idea of the demand that is out there for access to shoot hunter/PRS style, an event was held second half of last year that has been mentioned on this forum before.
It sold out in 8 minutes.
Entry was $400
The QRA will be running its second SH only day this Sunday 07.02.21.
https://www.facebook.com/events/256139319236490
They're on the right track. They have split SH into STD and Open. The rules still need to evolve a little I believe but I also believe that's the intention.
SH STD needs a few more restrictions such as maximum scope magnification, restrict rear bags to squeezy ear type, and clarification in some areas such as stock replacement.
I think SH Open needs to go the other way open the game up to PRS and full custom tactical style rifles that so many people are fond of. Increase maximum weight, open scope magnification, increase barrel length.
Not much more work to do have the best of both worlds. Make it easy for non Fclass / BR rifle owners. PRS and tactical rifle enthusiasts to utilise our world class long range facility in the middle of a city.
Oh, and thank you Mark for your explanation of the importance of MB's. You put it very well and in a way that I hadn't fully considered.
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Re: Rifle Suitability
The issue of muzzle brakes is confounding to me when our ranges are open paddocks with plenty of room on the mounds.
My 223 or 6.5 with a MB are not as dramatic as some 7SAUMs loaded to the max?!
We are actively discouraging a large number of potential members (who do not wish to remove them as it often leads to POI changes).
Run a detail for MBs; or have dedicated targets on the downwind end of the mound etc...surely we can plan for this. SSAA Belmont seems to manage it under a roof.
I am tired of explaining why I need to spot the fall of shot...and this class is supposedly for hunting rifles/PRS rigs where no one is seeing their misses on an electronic or paper target when they use the rifle as intended (ie when hunting or in PRS comps on steel plates).
I predicted this class may just end up giving existing members another option. If we don’t make some small tweaks I believe we will not ultimately expand our membership.
My 223 or 6.5 with a MB are not as dramatic as some 7SAUMs loaded to the max?!
We are actively discouraging a large number of potential members (who do not wish to remove them as it often leads to POI changes).
Run a detail for MBs; or have dedicated targets on the downwind end of the mound etc...surely we can plan for this. SSAA Belmont seems to manage it under a roof.
I am tired of explaining why I need to spot the fall of shot...and this class is supposedly for hunting rifles/PRS rigs where no one is seeing their misses on an electronic or paper target when they use the rifle as intended (ie when hunting or in PRS comps on steel plates).
I predicted this class may just end up giving existing members another option. If we don’t make some small tweaks I believe we will not ultimately expand our membership.
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Re: Rifle Suitability
SunnyCoast 5r wrote:...Run a detail for MBs; or have dedicated targets on the downwind end of the mound etc...
I think your second suggestion will suit our range and many others better, at least for weekly club shooting. Running separate details/sessions may create a "them and us" situation and competition for time slots. Some ranges only have 1 day a week available to them.
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Re: Rifle Suitability
My club has just had a flurry or new shooters coming out to compete with each other in Hunter class. We’ve intermixed them throughout the three targets we use and haven’t really had any issues. There was a short period of adjustment where the louder noise was mentioned, but generally this was by some of the older members who refused to wear hearing protection while standing back from the mound as they felt it made talking harder. The slightly louder noise has been more than offset by the buzz having more shooters present has created. Whatever you do, set it up as a trial for a predetermined period and see how people feel about it at the end of the period. Failing to embrace new members will eventually lead to the death of our sport.
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Re: Rifle Suitability
We're doing a 12 month trial, and are opting to limit muzzle brakes to one side of the mound. Those who don't like them can shoot on the other side, and those who don't mind them can shoot on either side. We'll also be trialling things to mitigate the blast and noise. One promising suggestion is to use a mat (e.g. carpet square) under the muzzle - apparently it reduces raised dust and grit significantly.