223 in F/tr.

[RDavies]

There has been talk of some people trying 155gn bullets in the short ranges or gentle conditions, then switching to bigger pills for the longs. No one seems to mention using a 223 in place of the 155s for short/mid ranges or easier conditions.
My thoughts are that with the lighter weight and bipod of an F/tr rifle, a 223 would be great for the 300-600 ranges, maybe further in gentle conditions. Are any of you looking at building a 223 as a 2nd gun for F/tr, especially since so many of our regional prize shoots are only out to 600yds.

[bshrestha01]

I was looking at it for some time now.

I have a Savage FTR in .308 which I wish to use as a FTR, not a F-Standard. And I have an omark in .308 as well which I wish to use as a F-Standard. The only problem is it cannot handle chamber pressure. It currently has issues getting more than 42.8 grains of 2206H which makes it good till 600 yards but iffy beyond that.

With such a .308 already with me, I did not see a reason to go for a .223 (except for ammunition costs which will be eaten up by the cost of the gun anyways) so, I stopped looking.

I will be looking to enter the FTR arena when and where possible. I will use the omark to shoot "shorter" distances as F-Standard.

[Roy cobb]

Will give you update as I go along with my 223 F/tr and see how it and I go

[bshrestha01]

There is another issue which I nearly forgot about. They are extremely hard to develop a load for and even then can be finicky. This comes from a couple of people from my club who use .223 as F-Standard rifles. And I have heard it from a number of people outside my club concur with this issue.

I would be happy if someone wants to correct me. This is not my first-hand experience, just something I have been told.

[RDavies]

There is another issue which I nearly forgot about. They are extremely hard to develop a load for and even then can be finicky. This comes from a couple of people from my club who use .223 as F-Standard rifles. And I have heard it from a number of people outside my club concur with this issue.

I would be happy if someone wants to correct me. This is not my first-hand experience, just something I have been told.

I was hoping that is an individual gun problem??? After hearing about the record scores shot lately with some 223s in F/std, and seeing how a few shooters such as Jim Blomfield shoot with them in f/std, then I was wondering if the lighter weight of F/tr rifles and the possible trickier gun handling off bipods might swing things more in the 223s favour.
Like you say though, they are smaller, so powder charges and bullet seting have to be accurate, though most better shooters are good at this.

[DaveMc]

The issues I have heard with the 223 appear more around achieving really tight velocity spreads compared to the 308 - this will not be an issue for short range work.

Jim actually does this and has a 308 set up for the longs but tends to leave it in the cupboard because he does so well with the 223.

Another issue is stepping from a 223 to the recoil of the 308 - especially if you are using the big pills. Some can do it but many struggle to keep technique. - You may gain a little at the shorts (but the 308 is more than capable of 60.10!) but do you really risk dropping a couple switching back to the 308????

[bshrestha01]

David Bridges from Bankstown Chatswood uses 223 exclusively for F-Standard and he and some other people in the club have told me that he has a set of processes to get the charges right and the cases set to the right size etc.

You probably would do the same for a .308 if you were that anal about it (Sorry David if you read this but I mean it in a good way). I haven't reached that point of finesse with my shooting yet. So I will stick to what is easier and as I learn and get better, I will start doing more experiments.

[Brad Y]

Nothing wrong with a 223 for the shorts. 1 sighter and into the 6 ring for score... 90.11 at 400m you should see this gun shoot at 700m as well! Maybe in rough conditions it is bettered by a 308 at the longs, but it just hammers. Pretty normal components... krieger barrel, barnard action, lapua cases, fed primers and 2208 with berger projectiles... EDIT- should add it isnt my rifle, nor was I the shooter.

[johnk]

I was told way back that the problem we face is that tolerances & errors are absolute, not a percentage. So, for example, if you load +- .1grain with a 25 grain loading, it will have more significance that the same tolerance on a 45 grain load. Likewise, manufacturing tolerances for cases, projectiles - all components - will result in a higher percentage effect in the smaller case.

[RDavies]

I was told way back that the problem we face is that tolerances & errors are absolute, not a percentage. So, for example, if you load +- .1grain with a 25 grain loading, it will have more significance that the same tolerance on a 45 grain load. Likewise, manufacturing tolerances for cases, projectiles - all components - will result in a higher percentage effect in the smaller case.

Yes, that would be correct. When shooters are getting great accuracy out of 6BRs though which I load with 28.8gns of 2206H (or 28.1gns in 22BR) for example, they run similar percentages to the 223s. (though I realise the 223 might not get the ES/SD that the BR will with its small flash hole etc.)

I was thinking these finer tolerances with the 223 are nearly overcome the way some of the real pedantic reloaders do their reloading, especially if 223s are to be used only out to 600yds, 800yds max. The F/std shooters have shown how accurate these 223s can be with a few 60.10s now being shot so their inherent accuracy may not be too bad (in shorter ranges) if the reloaders practices are up to scratch. (I admit that my charge master is accurate enough for me with my big case magnums, but I wouldn't use it in a little 223 for long range)

[RDavies]

The issues I have heard with the 223 appear more around achieving really tight velocity spreads compared to the 308 - this will not be an issue for short range work.

Jim actually does this and has a 308 set up for the longs but tends to leave it in the cupboard because he does so well with the 223.

Another issue is stepping from a 223 to the recoil of the 308 - especially if you are using the big pills. Some can do it but many struggle to keep technique. - You may gain a little at the shorts (but the 308 is more than capable of 60.10!) but do you really risk dropping a couple switching back to the 308????

Agreed, many have to work hard enough to keep their technique perfect with the more difficult F/tr rifles, though the 223 SHOULD be more forgiving with technique. (would you be able to shoot a 223 free recoil off a bipod??)
F/std and F Open has now evolved to quite a few shooters switching back to the forgiving tack holing 6BRs and 223s for the short ranges and switching to the bigger 284s and 308s sledge hammers for the longs. These people usually have to use a totally different technique with their two guns, but many still try the little guns even though many 60.10s have been shot with 308s and 284s.
I see that 223s are not very popular in USA but they often start at 800yds. Our prize shoots often finish at 600 and Queens prize shoots have a high percentage of short range shoots. Is there room for two guns in F/TR as F Open now do regularly?

[ShaneG]

Rod
I posted about a month ago on a very similar query. See Below

I started F class with a 223 due to recoil issues after a shoulder operation.
It is still in use for the shorter ranges up here.
My personal opinion is that it is competitive to 600M.
It is extremely accurate there having shot 100/100 twice at 300M on the old F Open target.
Past 600m the 308 rules - again this is my opinion.
The 308 can drive superior BC projectiles at faster velocities.

The master of the 223 in this region would be Jim Blomfield.
However I believe Jim often uses a 308 at the longs as well.

My experience is that I cannot match the 308 for vertical at the longs.
Where a velocity excursion will not be quite so noticeable at say <600M it can easily become a 4 at a 1000.
My SD with the 223 is higher than the 308 using the same loading process.
I have never used a 223 at a Queens due to transport issues but would only do so at the shorter ranges.
It is much more competitive now that Berger 80.5gr are legal.
Shane G
I shoot 155 hybrids exclusively here in OZ or 155.5 depending on barrel.
I shoot free recoil for elevation issues.

[Quick]

I plan on running a 223 8T barrel for the shorts in FS and also the shorts when shooting FO when I dont want to run my 6x47L.

[jasmay]

I shot .223 at 300yds today, it just happened that one was there and I got to try it, I have to say it got pushed around noticeably more than my .308.

If you got caught in a windy patch, your pants would be down.....

[Macca]

Rod
I posted about a month ago on a very similar query. See Below

I started F class with a 223 due to recoil issues after a shoulder operation.
It is still in use for the shorter ranges up here.
My personal opinion is that it is competitive to 600M.
It is extremely accurate there having shot 100/100 twice at 300M on the old F Open target.
Past 600m the 308 rules - again this is my opinion.
The 308 can drive superior BC projectiles at faster velocities.

The master of the 223 in this region would be Jim Blomfield.
However I believe Jim often uses a 308 at the longs as well.

My experience is that I cannot match the 308 for vertical at the longs.
Where a velocity excursion will not be quite so noticeable at say <600M it can easily become a 4 at a 1000.
My SD with the 223 is higher than the 308 using the same loading process.
I have never used a 223 at a Queens due to transport issues but would only do so at the shorter ranges.
It is much more competitive now that Berger 80.5gr are legal.
Shane G
I shoot 155 hybrids exclusively here in OZ or 155.5 depending on barrel.
I shoot free recoil for elevation issues.

Do you think the 80.5 gr has an advantage over the 80gr vld. I am just doing load development for the 80 vld because it has a higher bc.
I havent ramped up the pressures yet but shooting a low load to fire form cases off a bench I have been shooting it free recoil. I will probably do this for a start in f class because I cant shoot nearly as well prone as off a bench. Hopefully this will change once I have some tuition because im only just about to start f class