Promoting F/TR in Australia

[Woody_rod]

As other threads have had hot debate about the F/TR discipline, I wanted to open the discussion about actually beginning the process of getting F/TR going here.

Some reasoning to get this going:

1. ICFRA (like it or not) is now our standard on which to operate on an international setting. TR has been following the requirements in most sections.
2. ICFRA allows both an FO and F/TR category, the first essentially the same as the AU version, the F/TR being a fair bit different to our home grown F Standard discipline.
3. All international events concerning scoped rifle will now be shot using ICFRA rules. Some backwards national associations notwithstanding.
4. Although different to the AU FS, F/TR has its own quite distinct handicaps, which as yet, have not been looked at in depth (not the subject here).
5. There are people in AU that want to compete internationally in scoped rifle events, but NOT in FO. This only leaves F/TR.

The main idea of this thread is to talk about IMPLEMENTATION, not if the discpline will work here, which of course it will.

It is crystal clear that F/TR cannot just be cut and pasted over the top of F Standard, this is not the idea at all. It would need to have an opportunity to operate alongside the other disciplines. This would mean 3 scope rifle disciplines shooting at the same event.

There is only one way this can work: all shooters (TR, FO, FS and F/TR) shoot on ICFRA super V targets. I think this has now been resolved by the NRAA via a rule change.

Specific issues that might come about at a meeting with 3 scoped rifle disciplines:

- Some issues coming about by scorers being unsure about each discipline (common now with FS and FO).
- Slightly more work by admin people to get the scores into the correct spaces for each discipline
- More time to give prizes (more people to name)
- Potentially less prize money due to spreading what is available thinner
- Needing to find more sponsors (maybe)
- Acceptance of the new discipline

These are things well known to anyone that has had something to do with implementing FS into a prize meeting over the past few years. It is nothing new really in terms of what is required (IMO) for implementation of a discipline.

Ok, then how do we do this, considering it is going to happen sooner rather than later?

To start off, we will likely offer some sponsorship for the discipline, not sure how this will work yet. It is something we can develop after looking at what feedback we get. This is at a state level initially. Following on from that, we will also start looking at developing a National F/TR team for the 2013 FCWC, which we can also possibly sponsor.

It is easy to see that from a sponsor that operates worldwide, it is of less value to us to sponsor F Standard which only operates in AU. F/TR is a different story altogether.

[johnk]

Rod,

It's difficult to discount that your interest is largely commercial & the interests of Aussie shooters secondary.

John

[Barry Davies]

Best of luck to you woody.
Barry

[IanP]

If we change over to F/TR it has to be done right. Its a process that will require consultation and planning. Its a process that will take time!

Lets look at the hardware differences to start with...

1. Its shot off a bipod

2. Total weight of complete rifle + bipod cannot exceed 8.25kg

3. Chambers must conform to ICFRA specs

4. Projectiles while calibre limited (308W & 223R) are unrestricted in weight

Currently we can shoot off a bipod or front rest. The total weight including a bipod is 10kg or 8kg without a bipod attached.

Current chambers for 223 or 308 should suit ICFRA spec (expert opinion needed). The unrestricted weight limit for projectiles doesn't appear to make a great deal of difference as Grant Taylor (UK) won the F/TR championships using 155gr bullets.

It seems in discussion so far that the equipment was the biggest issue but my current FS rifle weighs in with bipod at 8.0kg well inside the ICFRA limit. I have a heavy Davies?? aluminium bipod (works great) fitted and still make the limit.

I think the biggest expense in crossing over to F/TR would be purchasing a light weight bipod. When taken in the context of purchasing shooting equipment the cost to change over would not be great.

The big issue after equipment is how does the changeover take place. Like I have said before it would need a period where both types of equipment are used upto a deadline date. Like analog TVs changing over to digital it would be a gradual process unless overwhelming support got it up and going quickly.

The final point is that the FS shooters would want the change to take place. It must have majority support or it is a waste of time. I think the change to F/TR will come but it will be when the attraction outweighs the hassle. We as shooters need to want and welcome the change otherwise its not going to happen.

International Teams events would make it more attractive than it is at present. Australia has to progress to the point where shooters want to shoot in international matches before F/TR will take off. It maybe a bit early at present to effect the change but it is the right time to have a plan for the future. I really dont think anyone thinks FS will remain unchanged forever when F/TR is now where the action is!

IanP

[Matt P]

Provided FT/R is added as new disipline and F Standard as we know it stays as it is, good luck.

Matt P

[AlanF]

...The big issue after equipment is how does the changeover take place. Like I have said before it would need a period where both types of equipment are used upto a deadline date. Like analog TVs changing over to digital it would be a gradual process unless overwhelming support got it up and going quickly...

Ian,

It doesn't need to be a changeover. We don't need a deadline for the finish of F-Std. Next thing you'll be suggesting a deadline for TR too . If F/TR deserves to succeed, it should be able to succeed in its own right, not by killing off one of the most successful shooting categories ever seen in Australia.

The last time I read a proposal like this was on April 1st (before midday) . I even had to look at the calendar to make sure it was Christmas and not Easter .

Alan

[IanP]

Alan, the disciplines are damn near the same and I think its whatever the majority of shooters want will be the way it pans out. The thing is that times change and maybe the next generation of shooters will want the next generation of FS and that is F/TR.

Its the 27th of December last time I looked at the date today. I believe senility brought on by old age and bad habits can cause memory loss.

IanP

[AlanF]

Alan, the disciplines are damn near the same and I think its whatever the majority of shooters want will be the way it pans out. The thing is that times change and maybe the next generation of shooters will want the next generation of FS and that is F/TR...

Quite possibly they will. I just don't agree with the idea of one class of shooting being shut down just because its become less popular than another. If F-Open had been treated like that, then we would've been finished about 10 years ago when F-Std became more popular. So if F/TR becomes more popular than F-Std, there is no reason why F-Std can't continue if it has sufficient numbers to be viable. And BTW, with your time deadline idea, shouldn't you have also proposed a deadline for how long to persist with the F/TR class if it didn't become more popular than F-Std?

Alan

[Seddo]

I don't like the idea of front rests but dont care either way. Someone (cant remember who) said this the other day and i think its spot on, "using a front rest in f class is like shooting benchrest prone".

[IanP]

Next thing you'll be suggesting a deadline for TR too!...

And BTW, with your time deadline idea, shouldn't you have also proposed a deadline for how long to persist with the F/TR class if it didn't become more popular than F-Std?
Alan

Alan,
TR is currently where FS should be and that is internationally recognised. I think TR is progressive and evolving, just look at the inclusion of scopes in TR competition at the moment in SA.

The deadline for TR is your idea not mine, your words not mine. If you want to start a thread on the demise of TR complete with a deadline (as you are clearly suggesting), I suggest you start another website and another forum and dont include my name in any suggestion of it.

As for a deadline for a suggestion which is all F/TR is at the moment, I guess it clearly states your emotion on this issue and your stand when you suggest the rediculous.

Perhaps you are a little too close to this issue and maybe even have crossed the line in attacking the person and not the issue in this thread. Its your website and you are the moderator its your call!

IanP

[Matt P]

Why the sudden interest in International recognition, it only applys to such a small number of shooters, 99 percent dont give a s%^t because they either dont want to , can't afford or have the talent to be picked on an Australian team, why change the rules to suit 1 percent ????

Matt P

[AlanF]

...The deadline for TR is your idea not mine, your words not mine...Perhaps you are a little too close to this issue and maybe even have crossed the line in attacking the person and not the issue in this thread. Its your website and you are the moderator its your call!

IanP

I'm certainly attacking your arguments Ian, particularly your serious proposal for a deadline for F-Std. And I think most will see that my mention of the same for TR was not serious, even if you didn't.

Regarding what is personal abuse, there is a fine line between what is acceptable and what isn't. For that reason I'm not the only moderator. And we could probably do with at least one more, so if anyone is prepared to help out with that, please PM me (don't all speak at once ).

I've moved this thread from Helping F-Class to Grow into Rules & the Future of F-Class . This is because the latter forum category is only visible to registered users, and while vigorous debate is a good thing for the sport, its not necessarily what we want the general public, especially the anti-gun lobby, to focus on.

Alan

[johnk]

TR is currently where FS should be and that is internationally recognised.

Ian,

I'm confused. How is it internationally recognised in a manner different to scoped rifle with standard calibres?

Britain shoots factory loads at its championships on targets more generous than ICFRAs with rifles limited to 6.5 kg & a 1½kg trigger.

The US Palma competition is for any caliber. Only a very limited group interested in shooting International Palma use the .308. They do conform with the unlimited rifle & trigger weight that ICFRA allows. Their target is virtually the same as ICFRA but they score 10X down.

The Canadians shoot ICFRA rules it seems.

We shoot ICFRA targets, 6½kg rifle & 1kg trigger.

Seems about the same as for F class - each to their own at home & corporate rules for international competition.

John

[IanP]

Why the sudden interest in International recognition, it only applys to such a small number of shooters, 99 percent dont give a s%^t because they either dont want to , can't afford or have the talent to be picked on an Australian team, why change the rules to suit 1 percent ????

Matt P

Matt, I see this as a discussion about the probable future of FS evolving into F/TR, others see it differently. The present is FS and wont change or evolve into F/TR until the majority of shooters (not just 1%) see it the same way I and others do!

Canada is going thru the same process at the moment though they are much further along the path to F/TR. This thread wont resolve any differences but it will highlight the fact to those who may have never heard of F/TR that F/TR is a future option to be considered.

IanP

[bobeager]

Must be sad when you have nothing better to do over the Holidays ! but I am down in my "shed" and have been pulling my F class std gear apart and weighing components, and have been able to put together a 308 and 223 that weigh under 8.25 Kg's including a LV profile barrel, Nightforce scope and a "davies" style bipod with "sliding feet". What I had to do was use a light weight stock of my own manufacture that comes in at exactly 1 kg.
Now all I need is the $10K or so to get to Raton