Building a suitable rifle for SH

[Tim L]

Your rite Brad. It would be good to keep it to one class but how do you keep the poachers out while also keeping it cost effective and still have the door open for a person who does have a modified rifle but isn't anywhere near FO level.

Like I mentioned before we are really talking about rules that effect people that haven't even been to a range yet so it's not like they are on the forum advocating for themselves.

If this is really about growing members, then why not limit to new members (some sort of timeframe here). Shooters coming from F Open to shoot SH really makes a mockery of the intent. This takes away nearly all the discussion about gear and puts it back to the shooter.
FO shooters have the option of PSR.

Pete

While the original intent WAS about bringing in new members, it has done that. We (the NRAA Community) now need to be looking at developing the discipline and I would have reservations about excluding ,,, well pretty much any one. Let's not forget that despite political opinion Australia literally dominates full bore shooting globally. Those who have shot long range KNOW, unequivocally, that winning requires wind reading. You can have a gun that can shoot less than x ring elevation all day and still lose against a 6 ring gun with someone who can hold laterally. I am sure that PRS already know this, so exactly who is new? New to NRAA or new to shooting?
There were no such exclusions with any of the F classes, in fact they were born of a need to give TR shooters (very experienced wind readers) somewhere to go when they could no longer shoot peep. There was nothing, however, stopping a capable TR shooter adopting F Class, and many did.
I believe the rules themselves need to distinguish this class in the same way the rules distinguish TR, and the F classes. Essentially, it's FTR with no caliber restriction. Many seem to thing the joypod offers some magical accuracy improvement. It doesn't, well the coax bit doesn't, the skis do. The coax simply allows for faster 'target acquisition'. Great for team shooting, not entirely necessary for individuals. Hence the still successful non coax bipods. The skis, they make a difference. I'd be happy to shoot my ftr rig in SH off a folding bipod with skis, on a front plate/mat and supported with a Seb big foot. I used to use an MPod which, while rigid and very cheap, offered nothing a Harris doesn't except the skis, which allow free recoil.
My personal opinion is that the rules need to prevent this, either by weight, rifle production, cost, rear bag restrictions, front plate elimination, or some other method. It needs to be different enough so any experienced long range shooter is taking little more than wind reading skills with them.
Shooting in Australia is competitive, like really competitive. We currently hold world Championship golds in TR, FO and silver in FTR. Whilst many have heard of our worthy American adversaries, who outside the NRAA have heard of Marty Lobert or Rod Davis ?
If people want to shoot, by all means come and shoot, but if they want to compete they had better aspire to being the very best, because that is who they are up against. If you take that away, what exactly is the point?

[Tim L]

Today at Rosedale, Tikka T3 6.5x55 with what looked like a 24" light varmint barrel https://shooting.hexsystems.com.au/shooting/467332

That's impressive shooting by any standard. Even if that gun is the exception to the general run, it shows what's possible.

Thanks for the post Alan

From Hornsby yesterday 800m , 26in 308 savage and someone else got a 50.9 in SH not sure about their rig
but i was using a very std 308 load 155.5s and 46gr 08

https://shooting.hexsystems.com.au/shooting/467659

OK well we have an answer to that question I watched these two today
https://shooting.hexsystems.com.au/shooting/468810 a very standard wooden stock hunter
https://shooting.hexsystems.com.au/shooting/468784 a standard Tikka varmint 6.5x55

[BATattack]

Your rite Brad. It would be good to keep it to one class but how do you keep the poachers out while also keeping it cost effective and still have the door open for a person who does have a modified rifle but isn't anywhere near FO level.

Like I mentioned before we are really talking about rules that effect people that haven't even been to a range yet so it's not like they are on the forum advocating for themselves.

If this is really about growing members, then why not limit to new members (some sort of timeframe here). Shooters coming from F Open to shoot SH really makes a mockery of the intent. This takes away nearly all the discussion about gear and puts it back to the shooter.
FO shooters have the option of PSR.

Pete

I agree with your thought process. I had considered maybe a 3yr timeframe but what happens after that? It would force them to get on board or get out that's for sure! Hahaha Also what about people like macguru that want to have a "play".

I think we need to consider the type of shooters that are around the place

New shooters. Maybe have a licence but don't have a gun. Or have a 22 and a 223 and go knock over a few foxes and rabbits on a mates farm. They currently don't reload but could find someone to help. Maybe they are introduced to the range by a friend or fellow worker. They are looking to get into some form of sport and "long range" shooting sounds cool. They aren't sure if it's for them but would like to have a go at a basic cost effective level before decided if this is the sport for them. This person. Is probably best suited to S/H standard until they decide if shooting sports are for them and if so where would they like to end up


Shooters outside of the NRAA / f class. This is they type of person who has several guns, some modified or custom. They already reload and have some concept of ballistics and accuracy. This person may just enjoy firearms and be a regular hunter or enjoy improving their skills on a private range or come from PRS or other SSAA form of shooting competition. They have a good understanding of the costs involved and what it might take to shoot consistently form 300 - 1000yds..To me this person can either make the choice to shoot S/H standard if they already have a rifle or if they choose to buy one OR they have realistic expectations of what their current equipment will do if they want to shoot in S/H open or what it may cost to go the whole hog in S/H open. To me this is the group that we would be loosing out on helping to grow our membership if we just decided to make it factory only. Factory only is too limited for them but pushing them into full FO is a step too far with the gear they have. These are the good people to have around clubs because they already have a good understanding but they just need some tips to become excellent. After some time in S/H they are also in a position to decide if they want to build a full custom f class gun or go fully into S/H open.

The third group is a person who has shot F class or long range for multiple years. They have exposure to advanced reloading techniques (neck turning, bullet pointing, bullet sorting, annealing etc). They have intermediate to advanced wind reading ability. They either already own or have a very good understanding of how to build a rifle specifically designed for long range accuracy. Ie custom actions, chamber dimensions, barrel length and profile, rifle balance etc. This group isn't really.going to be adding significant numbers to the membership because they are likely already members. They would likely be frustrated with a factory rifle so would gravitate toward S/H open and they get to play with their new toys. If they do choose to shoot SH standard there will be a few decent shooters from the second group to keep them honest AND many of their advanced reloading techniques will provide minimal advantage in factory guns with standard chambers. Maybe they are a top level PRS shooter who needs to work on their wind reading or would like to cross train. They could assist new S/H members improve.

[cheech]

Your rite Brad. It would be good to keep it to one class but how do you keep the poachers out while also keeping it cost effective and still have the door open for a person who does have a modified rifle but isn't anywhere near FO level.

Like I mentioned before we are really talking about rules that effect people that haven't even been to a range yet so it's not like they are on the forum advocating for themselves.

If this is really about growing members, then why not limit to new members (some sort of timeframe here). Shooters coming from F Open to shoot SH really makes a mockery of the intent. This takes away nearly all the discussion about gear and puts it back to the shooter.
FO shooters have the option of PSR.

Pete

I agree with your thought process. I had considered maybe a 3yr timeframe but what happens after that? It would force them to get on board or get out that's for sure! Hahaha Also what about people like macguru that want to have a "play".

I think we need to consider the type of shooters that are around the place

New shooters. Maybe have a licence but don't have a gun. Or have a 22 and a 223 and go knock over a few foxes and rabbits on a mates farm. They currently don't reload but could find someone to help. Maybe they are introduced to the range by a friend or fellow worker. They are looking to get into some form of sport and "long range" shooting sounds cool. They aren't sure if it's for them but would like to have a go at a basic cost effective level before decided if this is the sport for them. This person. Is probably best suited to S/H standard until they decide if shooting sports are for them and if so where would they like to end up


Shooters outside of the NRAA / f class. This is they type of person who has several guns, some modified or custom. They already reload and have some concept of ballistics and accuracy. This person may just enjoy firearms and be a regular hunter or enjoy improving their skills on a private range or come from PRS or other SSAA form of shooting competition. They have a good understanding of the costs involved and what it might take to shoot consistently form 300 - 1000yds..To me this person can either make the choice to shoot S/H standard if they already have a rifle or if they choose to buy one OR they have realistic expectations of what their current equipment will do if they want to shoot in S/H open or what it may cost to go the whole hog in S/H open. To me this is the group that we would be loosing out on helping to grow our membership if we just decided to make it factory only. Factory only is too limited for them but pushing them into full FO is a step too far with the gear they have. These are the good people to have around clubs because they already have a good understanding but they just need some tips to become excellent. After some time in S/H they are also in a position to decide if they want to build a full custom f class gun or go fully into S/H open.

The third group is a person who has shot F class or long range for multiple years. They have exposure to advanced reloading techniques (neck turning, bullet pointing, bullet sorting, annealing etc). They have intermediate to advanced wind reading ability. They either already own or have a very good understanding of how to build a rifle specifically designed for long range accuracy. Ie custom actions, chamber dimensions, barrel length and profile, rifle balance etc. This group isn't really.going to be adding significant numbers to the membership because they are likely already members. They would likely be frustrated with a factory rifle so would gravitate toward S/H open and they get to play with their new toys. If they do choose to shoot SH standard there will be a few decent shooters from the second group to keep them honest AND many of their advanced reloading techniques will provide minimal advantage in factory guns with standard chambers. Maybe they are a top level PRS shooter who needs to work on their wind reading or would like to cross train. They could assist new S/H members improve.

Bat , you’ve summed it up pretty well , each scenario mentioned would predictably play out .

[Mick_762]

Just as an aside from “building” a SH rifle.
I wish I took a photo of the score.

Tikka CTR in .308
20” barrel
Sightron STac scope
Harris bipod
Rice filled rear bag

Sellior and Bellot 147gn factory ammo.
300m.

I thought I did ok with a 48.6

But then I got thrashed by my own rifle, with another nut behind the butt.
50.6

Stock standard rifle. Nothing “done” to enhance it apart from adjusting the factory trigger.
Will be interesting to see how it goes at the mids - I know it wont keep up at the longs.

[Weairy]

Just as an aside from “building” a SH rifle.
I wish I took a photo of the score.

Tikka CTR in .308

Never discount those standard Tikkas.
There's one down here, rock stock T3X Varmint in 223, shot a 75.13 at 500yd over the weekend, consistently shoots 75 with lots at 500/600yd.

Winner at the GVDRA prize meeting was a 10 year old basic Ruger M77 22-250 with an Arctic Fox scope on it that the shooter said was "that much of a piece of sh*t, I have to hold the parallax knob when I fire to stop it going out of focus". Shot the daylights out of it though, 75.9 and 75.11 at 500yd.

Factory rifles are definitely capable at shorter ranges with good reloading and shooting technique.

[dazza284]

Ok I am from the outside looking in and after reading this whole thread I was thinking about heading down for a shot this weekend after reading this I've got to wonder whether I'd even be welcome.
sad state of affairs from what I can see far as I am concerned there should only be one rule factory rifle unmodified what's next scope power and Construction limits to go along with weight limits barrel length limits ammunition limits before you know it you'll have it reduced down to F standard.

[macguru]

Dazza alot of shooters are enthusiasts who like to build their own rifles, so why should they be forced to get a store bought option instead, as long as their creation complies with the rules regarding weight, barrel length and bipod ? Besides , there is a huge variation in the cost and quality of store bought, from $1000 to $15000 .... is that fair ?

[Barossa_222]

Dazza alot of shooters are enthusiasts who like to build their own rifles, so why should they be forced to get a store bought option instead, as long as their creation complies with the rules regarding weight, barrel length and bipod ? Besides , there is a huge variation in the cost and quality of store bought, from $1000 to $15000 .... is that fair ?

But it just doesn't comply with rules mate. No part of putting a rifle together complies with hunter class. You clearly haven't looked at the intent behind bringing this class in. You are making up your own interpretations and picking which parts of the rules you want to follow.

[BATattack]

Dazza alot of shooters are enthusiasts who like to build their own rifles, so why should they be forced to get a store bought option instead, as long as their creation complies with the rules regarding weight, barrel length and bipod ? Besides , there is a huge variation in the cost and quality of store bought, from $1000 to $15000 .... is that fair ?

If they are enthused about building rifles there is plenty of scope to fit within the rules of FS, FTR and FO. What would you build that couldn't fit into the scope of one of these existing classes?

Quality vs price and fairness is the exact reason for my suggestion of a price cap. . . .as is already being utilised in PRS. Its already being done and policed by another association so not sure why the NRAA aren't capable of doing the same.

[Weairy]

Ok I am from the outside looking in and after reading this whole thread I was thinking about heading down for a shot this weekend after reading this I've got to wonder whether I'd even be welcome.
sad state of affairs from what I can see far as I am concerned there should only be one rule factory rifle unmodified what's next scope power and Construction limits to go along with weight limits barrel length limits ammunition limits before you know it you'll have it reduced down to F standard.

Don't let this forum deter you. Go to your local club and have a crack and you'll soon see it's often the very vocal minority making mountains from mole hills.

Having seen a couple of rock-stock rifles shoot over the weekend, they're definitely competitive.

"Factory unmodified" is a hard one to police and pretty broad. I've got a Remington 700, which was bought off the shelf as a "Custom Long Range". This is a factory option, comes with an adjustable Form stock (still hunter style), 26" heavy varmint barrel etc. I've replaced the barrel with a fluted 308 Hardy Barrel, knowing the standard barrels don't get much life. Remington also do a VSF which is a 26" stainless fluted heavy varmint barrel, looks identical. If I didn't say anything, you could very much pass the rifle off as a VSF/Custom Long Range combo without any way to prove it otherwise. And then you've obviously got the likes of a Fierce or Surgeon or similar, which are high-end "factory" rifles, capable of extreme accuracy if you throw the coin to buy one.

Scopes are also a challenge. Scope power limit is sensible in my opinion. If you ever have a chance, lay down behind a 24x $800 scope (Vortex Diamondback, ZeroTech, Nikko Sterling etc) and then a 55x Nightforce or March. MASSIVE difference in what you can see and your ability to aim and aim off, much more precise adjustments (true 1/8 clicks; my Zerotech is pretty variable on clicks!). They're also dedicated target scopes, designed for F-Class shooting.

Weight and barrel length are again a way to separate "target" and "sporting/hunting" rifles; how many deer shooters use a 55x scope on an 8kg rifle with a 30" parallel barrel?

There needs to be some rules in place to allow as many people to compete as possible, fairly, without the arms race or advantages of traditional F-Class.

[macguru]

Dazza alot of shooters are enthusiasts who like to build their own rifles, so why should they be forced to get a store bought option instead, as long as their creation complies with the rules regarding weight, barrel length and bipod ? Besides , there is a huge variation in the cost and quality of store bought, from $1000 to $15000 .... is that fair ?

But it just doesn't comply with rules mate. No part of putting a rifle together complies with hunter class. You clearly haven't looked at the intent behind bringing this class in. You are making up your own interpretations and picking which parts of the rules you want to follow.

Clearly we are never going to agree, i am just lucky to live in NSW and will get on with enjoying our sport !

[dazza284]

Ok I am from the outside looking in and after reading this whole thread I was thinking about heading down for a shot this weekend after reading this I've got to wonder whether I'd even be welcome.
sad state of affairs from what I can see far as I am concerned there should only be one rule factory rifle unmodified what's next scope power and Construction limits to go along with weight limits barrel length limits ammunition limits before you know it you'll have it reduced down to F standard.

Don't let this forum deter you. Go to your local club and have a crack and you'll soon see it's often the very vocal minority making mountains from mole hills.

Having seen a couple of rock-stock rifles shoot over the weekend, they're definitely competitive.

"Factory unmodified" is a hard one to police and pretty broad. I've got a Remington 700, which was bought off the shelf as a "Custom Long Range". This is a factory option, comes with an adjustable Form stock (still hunter style), 26" heavy varmint barrel etc. I've replaced the barrel with a fluted 308 Hardy Barrel, knowing the standard barrels don't get much life. Remington also do a VSF which is a 26" stainless fluted heavy varmint barrel, looks identical. If I didn't say anything, you could very much pass the rifle off as a VSF/Custom Long Range combo without any way to prove it otherwise. And then you've obviously got the likes of a Fierce or Surgeon or similar, which are high-end "factory" rifles, capable of extreme accuracy if you throw the coin to buy one.

Scopes are also a challenge. Scope power limit is sensible in my opinion. If you ever have a chance, lay down behind a 24x $800 scope (Vortex Diamondback, ZeroTech, Nikko Sterling etc) and then a 55x Nightforce or March. MASSIVE difference in what you can see and your ability to aim and aim off, much more precise adjustments (true 1/8 clicks; my Zerotech is pretty variable on clicks!). They're also dedicated target scopes, designed for F-Class shooting.

Weight and barrel length are again a way to separate "target" and "sporting/hunting" rifles; how many deer shooters use a 55x scope on an 8kg rifle with a 30" parallel barrel?

There needs to be some rules in place to allow as many people to compete as possible, fairly, without the arms race or advantages of traditional F-Class.

Well I suppose this will sound strange but I will quote your second last paragraph 1st everybody I know who hunts deer uses the exact rifle you mention big calibers heavy guns powerful scopes long range but then again I don't hunt with dog teams and only about 3 times a year do I just grab a sporter weight rifle and go for a walk as I said I'm not even a member of the VRA (but would like to change this) the way I see it two classes one with all your restrictions and then the other still only a factory supplied rifle unlimited as cost and weight.
With all these rules being talked about and in the other thread as well you would not even be able to use a Tikka tac A1 very popular in the Circles I rub shoulders with.
You may as well have a rule banning howas and tikkas because they are just too accurate just imagine the poor bloke that rolls up with a new Remington or Marlin or something like that compared to tikka or a howa he would not have a hope no matter what scope he was using if said person had similar shooting skills.
Hopefully I am wrong but way back in the 90s I turned my back on clubs because of all the bitterness and infighting took the fun right out of it first thing I did was resign from the committee it was only 4 weeks later and then I gave up on it all together stuck the private property I really hope this doesn't end up going the same way at least when you go to f class or Target rifle F open there's a heap of rules you got to comply with this hunter class as I see it should only have one rule factory rifle no extra barrels no aftermarket triggers and aftermarket stocks that is what the other classes are for just the way I see it not having a go just my humble opinion.

Cheers

[Lithgow]

With all these rules being talked about and in the other thread as well you would not even be able to use a Tikka tac A1 very popular in the Circles I rub shoulders with.
You may as well have a rule banning howas and tikkas because they are just too accurate just imagine the poor bloke that rolls up with a new Remington or Marlin or something like that compared to tikka or a howa he would not have a hope no matter what scope he was using if said person had similar shooting skills.

FYI, the heaviest version of a Tac A1 is only 4.8kgs.
Harris Bipod Pic rail mounted 426gm
Vortex Strike Eagle 870gms
Total 6.1kgs plus a set of rings, pretty easy to achieve

[dazza284]

With all these rules being talked about and in the other thread as well you would not even be able to use a Tikka tac A1 very popular in the Circles I rub shoulders with.
You may as well have a rule banning howas and tikkas because they are just too accurate just imagine the poor bloke that rolls up with a new Remington or Marlin or something like that compared to tikka or a howa he would not have a hope no matter what scope he was using if said person had similar shooting skills.

FYI, the heaviest version of a Tac A1 is only 4.8kgs.
Harris Bipod Pic rail mounted 426gm
Vortex Strike Eagle 870gms
Total 6.1kgs plus a set of rings, pretty easy to achieve

Well I for one will not go out and buy more stuff I don't need to make weight mine comes in at 6.608 so the 6.5 being bandied about would not work for me .
Not that it matters i don't have any of my previous trophies from my previous shooting club Adventures which there were numerous I'm in it for the fun of it but there are there who will just look at it and go yeah narh walk away it's about growing the sport not scaring people away .