Building a suitable rifle for SH

[AlanF]

I'd like to see the S/H rules tightened up to be unmodified factory rifles full stop with a maximum RRP price (indexed for inflation).

But importantly, at the same time introduce a more advanced unlimited price class which allows much more freedom with things like re-barrelling, and aftermarket improvements.

That would make it very simple to police the basic class, and if basic class people want to modify, no problem, but they would be required to move up to the advanced class.

[Barry Davies]

You could equally apply that thinking to FS and FO in an endeavor to increase numbers.

[BATattack]

I'd like to see the S/H rules tightened up to be unmodified factory rifles full stop with a maximum RRP price (indexed for inflation).

But importantly, at the same time introduce a more advanced unlimited price class which allows much more freedom with things like re-barrelling, and aftermarket improvements.

That would make it very simple to police the basic class, and if basic class people want to modify, no problem, but they would be required to move up to the advanced class.

100% agreed.

[Tim L]

I'd like to see the S/H rules tightened up to be unmodified factory rifles full stop with a maximum RRP price (indexed for inflation).

But importantly, at the same time introduce a more advanced unlimited price class which allows much more freedom with things like re-barrelling, and aftermarket improvements.

That would make it very simple to police the basic class, and if basic class people want to modify, no problem, but they would be required to move up to the advanced class.

The issue I see with that is having an additional 2 classes bringing us to 9.
It also splits the numbers which makes prizes a problem. But lets run with it.
Unmodified factory already includes a lot, from a howa 1500 to Accuracy International. That leaves us with the price being the only defining factor. PLUS I have yet to hear of an unmodified Howa, Tikka, or Sako (bar the S20) perform at the longs. Can they even do it? Has anyone done it or seen it done?
There seems little point introducing a competative discipline with restrictions that prevent them from being able to compete. By all means come and shoot the mids, (get the bug) but if the gun can't hold black at 600 I'd be reluctant to having it shoot from further back.

[macguru]

My rifle can regularly shoot 50s (50.x) at 800m in calm conditions and as you have read its a 6.4kg savage 308 with a varmint barrel.... any sako trg or Ai 308 can do the same ..... If you are going to let them shoot alongside a skinny 223 with hunting rounds , of course its never going to be fair. Down in sydney Magnum sports sells heaps of the heavier barrel urban sniper rifles because thats what young guys think a rifle should look like (and perform like). They do not have much opportunity to go hunting in the bush but if they do they will take it along. The rest of the time, if our club is shooting at 800m, they would like to come along and not feel like its a waste of time (theirs and ours) or a risk to our targets !

I accept that there are some hot roo shooters out there with accurate hunting rigs. Heck, if I had to climb up a hill sambar hunting I would want a light rifle ...

Andrew

[Tim L]

My rifle can regularly shoot 50s (50.x) at 800m in calm conditions and as you have read its a 6.4kg savage 308 with a varmint barrel.... any sako trg or Ai 308 can do the same ..... If you are going to let them shoot alongside a skinny 223 with hunting rounds , of course its never going to be fair. Down in sydney Magnum sports sells heaps of the heavier barrel urban sniper rifles because thats what young guys think a rifle should look like (and perform like). They do not have much opportunity to go hunting in the bush but if they do they will take it along. The rest of the time, if our club is shooting at 800m, they would like to come along and not feel like its a waste of time (theirs and ours) or a risk to our targets !

I accept that there are some hot roo shooters out there with accurate hunting rigs. Heck, if I had to climb up a hill sambar hunting I would want a light rifle ...

Andrew

OK, so maybe we need to consider weight as well as price.
What model is your Savage?

[macguru]

Its similar to this but remember I bought the parts separately
the savage 110 precision 308

https://www.savagearms.com/content?p=fi ... ry&s=57563

[Tim L]

Its similar to this but remember I bought the parts separately
the savage 110 precision 308

https://www.savagearms.com/content?p=fi ... ry&s=57563

OK. So again, not exactly a "standard hunting rifle".
Perhaps for definition by example a SHR is a Howa 1500, Tikka T3 or CTR, a Sako 85, Remmington 700, Savage apex or carbon hunter, winchester 70 or XPR,,, and the like.

I appreciate that manufacturers are now "accurising" these same actions by dropping them in chassis style stocks, but that's not where we are yet.

My question/challenge remains, can this style of rifle shoot 7 8,9?
If not, why consider them in the rules?
We then move on to seperating the "standard accurised" versions as bought off the shelf vs the "modified accurised" "custom built" rifles.

Mac, atm you sit squarely in the second group so would be shooting against the best rifles out there, not in "standard".

For a set of rules to work they need to be enforced. How is an RO supposed to know what is available as standard?

[AlanF]

...The issue I see with that is having an additional 2 classes bringing us to 9. It also splits the numbers which makes prizes a problem...

You may find that at least initially, the basic class may only compete at club level. But as their numbers grow, which by all indications they surely will, then clubs will get big enough fields to viably offer it at OPMs. And regarding capabilities, we have shooters at Rosedale with bog standard Howas etc chambered in the likes of .308 and 6.5 Creedmore who do very nicely thank you at 1000yds. If you can get to prospective members before they buy, you can advise them what to buy. Unfortunately many of them seem to think they need to already have a rifle to be worthy of coming to the range! We need to educate local gunshops better so they can advise buyers about suitability for the class.

[macguru]

They should probably get me to write the rules

I would just say, 26in varmint weight barrel repeater with a 7kg all up weight limit in 308 or 223 for sh/std
and any calibre for sh/open, if you want to allow it at all. Or you could lump them together I dont care.

And for shooting style, an adjustable bipod , harris style, (folding, no joystick) and rear bag with no ears

Andrew

[BATattack]

I'd like to see the S/H rules tightened up to be unmodified factory rifles full stop with a maximum RRP price (indexed for inflation).

But importantly, at the same time introduce a more advanced unlimited price class which allows much more freedom with things like re-barrelling, and aftermarket improvements.

That would make it very simple to police the basic class, and if basic class people want to modify, no problem, but they would be required to move up to the advanced class.

The issue I see with that is having an additional 2 classes bringing us to 9.
It also splits the numbers which makes prizes a problem. But lets run with it.
Unmodified factory already includes a lot, from a howa 1500 to Accuracy International. That leaves us with the price being the only defining factor. PLUS I have yet to hear of an unmodified Howa, Tikka, or Sako (bar the S20) perform at the longs. Can they even do it? Has anyone done it or seen it done?
There seems little point introducing a competative discipline with restrictions that prevent them from being able to compete. By all means come and shoot the mids, (get the bug) but if the gun can't hold black at 600 I'd be reluctant to having it shoot from further back.

I agree there are too many classes already but it's probably the only way to satisfy those that like to build custom rifles and also accommodate new shooters at an entry level price maybe that's the compromise that needs to be made. Also note that Alan has suggested a price cap to keep the AIs seperate form the Howas etc.

Yes rifles will do it. Not many will do it with factory ammo because we don't have much of that match grade stuff avaible over here. With factory ammo off top of my head you'd be limited to 308 and probably 6.5creed

Common calibres that can do it out if a 24" barrel with common twist rates with handloaded ammo

233 1-8 twist in ideal situations
6 creed
6.5 creed
260
6.5x55
6.5prc
7-08
7wsm
7rem mag
308
300wsm
300 win mag
300prc

Common rifles that are reasonably priced that could do it.

Tikka varmint (new timber stock varmint model would be good choice)
Tikka range
Tikka CTR
Tikka Tac
Howa varmint (Either HS precision stock or MDT Oryx chassis would be good choice)
Rem 700 VSSF, 5R, VLS, sendero etc etc etc
Sako varmint
Lithgow varmint
Lithgow Woomera
Begara varmint / tac
Savage

[Tim L]

That's a fine list Bat, but again there are a few not traditional hunting rifles in there.
My concern is that whilst on paper they could, why has no one done it?
I can scrub the tikka CTR off that list, its only got 20" and it definately can't, I've tried. Also scrub the Sako vatmint (the 85 in 243 at least) I've tried that too. I've not tried the T3 in 223 but would say not there too.
My concern is that we encourage people with guns that simply aren't designed for this game to have a good old Aussie go and end up with lots of missis ( jepordising our ranges) or someone has a right proper go and blows their face off.

[AlanF]

...My concern is that we encourage people with guns that simply aren't designed for this game...

I agree if we do that its not right Tim. Clubs have a responsibility in that regard in any class. When someone first visits our range with a hunting rifle we assess it for suitability, and if we consider its not suitable for more than say 600yd we don't allow them to shoot it beyond there. And if we advise new members on what to get, we steer them towards something that's suitable for the longest ranges. Occasionally we get rifles such as 303s with worn out barrels that turn up that are clearly not capable of sufficient accuracy at the longs, so their use might be restricted to manual targets at shorter ranges.

[cheech]

We’ve had quite a few new shooters join up and only use factory rifles , the biggest let down is the average scope can not accommodate longer ranges , some even struggle to 500m in reliable function just not designed to be dialled quickly or to resume hunting zero
These members are honest with themselves and only show up at 3,4,and 500m , you won’t see them turn up at a OPM with longer distances

[Tim L]

With those 2 concuring views of the potential problems of people showing up with equipment that is not designed to, nor capable of, shooting long range (if we can gain wider support) we could, perhaps, work on rules for the discipline.
As I see it (personal viewpoint and open for adjustment) we potentially have 3 groups of shooters in this discipline.
1. Hunting rifles ( probably only capable of shooting mid range 300yds to 600m)
2. Commercial Off The Shelf (COTS) rifles. Woomer S20 and others designed and built for long range.
3. Customised and custom built.

I would like to suggest group 1 need to be managed at club level and need to qualify to shoot anything past 300m. ie an RO signs off to say they can, based on an assessment of the gear or a shooting result.
This protects our targets and our ranges ( if we start to record large numbers of misses it is quite possible questions will be asked with the potential ranges are closed. SSRs must mitigate the possibility of misses and manage those that occur (investigate and explain them)) we already do this.


How do we define the gear for this discipline against those already existing?

Do we need to, and if ,yes, how do we split the other 2 groups in a way an RO can manage?
Possibilities include, but not limited to:
Price? A bit hard for the RO to know
Weight? Easy enough but is it effective?
Barrel length? Might need to be covered in the discipline definition.
Barrel weight? Hard to ascertain on the range
Barrel profile? By whose definition? A Bart HV is very different to a Tikka HV
Calibre? Very easy and currently within our tradition.
Projectile weight? Hard to ascertain on the range and maybe not effective.

At this point, if the OP doesnt mind, I would ask Alan to close this thread and I'll start another, with these questions. That thread is speciffically aimed at thrashing out some rules to present to the NRAA. Community designed rules, with reasoning, all open to public view and comment.
It could turn into a shit fight, but worth a go I reckon.