Competition incident involving the SH Discipline 4/6/22

[BATattack]

I don't really see what's so complicated about it. Rule 23.3 "standard" and "factory made" is what should be taken out of it. The whole intent of sporter / hunter class is to get back to basics to keep it accessible, affordable and competitive for as many people as possible. Original rifle IN ITS ORIGNAL CALIBRE. If you wear the barrel out you have to option to replace it with one of the same profile and calibre.


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[Rich4]

I dont believe the class was totally meant to be exclusive to beginners, but more geared to rational hunting rifles which by default most beginners already have, personally I've not competed but if it encourages excellence in practical hunting accuracy I'm in.

[!Peter!]

Just to add to how nebulous this all is consider the Tikka Sporter, straight from the Australian distributor's website:
"The Tikka T3x Sporter: A rifle that is capable of performing at the highest level of competition while simultaneously functioning as a hunting rifle. This ultimate target rifle was developed in cooperation with Tikka and the Finnish Hunting and Sporting Association."
https://www.berettaaustralia.com.au/rif ... x-sporter-

So its a mass produced rifle that is intended to function as a hunting rifle and available in 6.5x55 SE

[Brian]

SH appeals to a lot of experienced shooters as well as newbies. There should be room for both and I don't see why it causes the reaction that it does from some people that wont even want to shoot it. Like any set of rules over time it will change - none of the SSR's are carved in stone - they move and adapt over time.

If you own a business then you have a service or offering to bring to the customer. If the customer likes it they return. The long term attraction and retention of customers builds success. Products diversify and additional markets are created.

Think of SH as a product bringing in a member, or it may indeed retain a member that was going to leave. Are we not about getting more members into the sport - we need members to be active, to take part in club activities, to help with keeping the overall organisation moving and expanding.

Maybe its time for the SSR's to have a chapter on how to be inclusive. I drink tea, and not coffee, so naturally I have zero input on how someone should drink their coffee and rightly so. Maybe that's just a better attitude to adopt ?

[Lithgow]

This class is still in its infancy, but is a competition class and should be treated as such, SSRs adhered to and prizes awarded just like every other class.
It's inception was to attract new members into the sport and boost club member numbers, progression from SH to TR, Standard etc is the goal, not be grid fillers to allow traditional classes to be justified.

[Rogue22]

Hers another view i have on this, now you guys are going to
Shred me for this, but this is my view,
This class was designed to attract new shooters,
So i think its piss poor that andrew a seasoned f class shooter even enters this class, theres
Other classes to shoot ,,,so to me you got what you deserved , nothing, stay out of begginers class
This is y there should be no prices for this class ,JMO
cheers jacko, 0402317506

Harsh, but I see the reasoning. I was at a Queens one year where age of the C grade TR (a beginners class) exceeded their scores! The youngsters won a range or two but were nowhere to be seen in the Aggs.
I still feel the only real way to moderate this discipline is to remove the rear bag. At least then, regardless of rifle make up, it would be the best shooter winning. It also puts a clear destinction between it and F class. Easy to police and very challenging.

Hi Tim,

Only problem with this is that you will have new shooters missing the target all together and constantly getting low scores. SH should be just a soft rear squeeze bag only as they are both really effective but require skill to use effectively. This way new shooters can get reasonable scores ‘to encourage participation’ but still work on marksmanship skills to become better shooters and hopefully use those skills in f class one day.

[shadow]

Its been brought to my attention that this is a new class of competition
With that i opoligize for my harsh comments, so sorry Andrew
And what happened to you is not good for the class, again , i opoligize

[BATattack]

They tried to create benchrest hunter class and that also failed for the same reason this will. It was supposed to attract new shooters. All it did was give experienced shooters the opportunity to go and build kelbly repeating benchrest rifles and poach prizes.

We DO need something like this as a class that is as accessible and competitive to as many people as possible

Here's a thought. Why don't we adopt the PRS production division rules? Keeps things affordable, makes it more about the shooter than the equipment AND gives people who are considering getting into long range competition the ability to have ONE budget friendly rifle to shoot BOTH f class and PRS.

In 2022, the rifle shall not exceed $3,250 AUD. The optic shall not exceed $2,750 AUD. The price will be determined by averaging 3 advertised prices from reputable Australian retailers.

Rifles may not be modified with the exception of factory trigger adjustments, threading of barrel to run a muzzle brake, addition of detachable magazine system, and glass bedding. See Section 2.2.10 for specific details.

People will cry that "well that excludes those that have rifles that cost more than that" fact is that if it costs more than that it should probably be slotted into FO and people who are spending more than that likely have the means to buy a second budget rifle if they really want to be in S/H. This is gonna be controversial. . . . . . . .looking at the numbers and the level of competition I don't think it will be many more years before we see a B grade in FO so those that get bumped up will find a suitable home in FO B. Maybe TR C grade is dropped.

Here's an even more way out there idea. I'd love to see a Lithgow class. A class that is restricted to the use of a absolutely stock standard Lithgow Woomera rifle in 308. The ONLY modification can be the fitment of a tuner and a Harris bipod. Approach ADI and have them make factory ammo. So budget friendly, everyone is competing with the same equipment and ammo. You can use the tuner to adjust for different ammo lots and you don't need reloading equipment or experience. You can fly to a competition anywhere in Australia without needing a Sherpa and you can buy suitable ammo locally. People will likely upgrade and merge into existing classes and rifles will become available for the next wave of new shooters. If it was supported by the NRAA and Lithgow it would take a lot of cost and overwhelming decisions away from new shooters. For me between work and family commitments and not having the time required at the moment to keep FO equipment tuned to the level required being able to grab a rifle and a box of ammo and go and shoot long range and compete on an equal footing is also very appealing. Ticks a lot of boxes except for not being inclusive of those that already have a rifle so will probably never get off the ground.

[Rich4]

So pretty much where TR started? I personally agree, standard ammo or rifle or both keeps the arms race under control allowing personal skill to prevail.

[BATattack]

So pretty much where TR started? I personally agree, standard ammo or rifle or both keeps the arms race under control allowing personal skill to prevail.

Yep! Except ammo and rifles won't be free issue but they will be affordable and relatively the same.

Most people that are in F class are extremely passionate shooters and accuracy nuts. Great bunch but 99% of those people haven't just stumbled into this type of shooting. They have probably searched for it and have a reasonable idea of what it will take before they start. This is fine but what about all the other people kicking around that aren't into a physical sport but would like to get out and be competitive in something. People that are sitting on the fence, that have family commitments, that don't have large disposable income but have a competitive nature. Driven by the knowledge that they are on even footing with those along side of them. I look around my workplace and social circle and there arent too many people that are very passionate about shooting but there are plenty looking for an affordable and challenging hobby.

[macguru]

Yep I can remember when ammo was free BUT they expected us to go to Vietnam when conscripted

If people buy a halfway decent 308 (lithgow woomera, savage 110 precision, tikka varmint etc) then they can get a reasonable score and they will come back and probably JOIN. If they get a skinny 243 10 twist shooting lead tipped hunting rounds then they spray them all over your precious ETs and get discouraged .... you may not see them again

[Tim L]

Hi Tim,

Only problem with this is that you will have new shooters missing the target all together and constantly getting low scores. SH should be just a soft rear squeeze bag only as they are both really effective but require skill to use effectively. This way new shooters can get reasonable scores ‘to encourage participation’ but still work on marksmanship skills to become better shooters and hopefully use those skills in f class one day.

I hear what you say but don't really follow the logic. Missing the target is not something limited to new shooters, nor are low scores. Anyone who thinks they are going to step in to shooting accurately at our ranges is likely in for an education. I know I got one. That's the challenge though, isn't it?
Knowing what IS achievable and working towards it. A soft squeesable bag might be an option but how do you define it within the rules? TR shoot with no bag and no front rest and beginners achieve many a wayward shot. I've also seen a 45 with 9 from a very seasoned individual.
Those that want to improve, continue; those that don't give up.

[Rogue22]

Hi Tim,

Only problem with this is that you will have new shooters missing the target all together and constantly getting low scores. SH should be just a soft rear squeeze bag only as they are both really effective but require skill to use effectively. This way new shooters can get reasonable scores ‘to encourage participation’ but still work on marksmanship skills to become better shooters and hopefully use those skills in f class one day.

I hear what you say but don't really follow the logic. Missing the target is not something limited to new shooters, nor are low scores. Anyone who thinks they are going to step in to shooting accurately at our ranges is likely in for an education. I know I got one. That's the challenge though, isn't it?
Knowing what IS achievable and working towards it. A soft squeesable bag might be an option but how do you define it within the rules? TR shoot with no bag and no front rest and beginners achieve many a wayward shot. I've also seen a 45 with 9 from a very seasoned individual.
Those that want to improve, continue; those that don't give up.

Those that want to improve, continue; those that don't give up.

Couldn’t have said that better myself, and yes I’ve had plenty of education in terrible scores too!

[BATattack]

Hi Tim,

Only problem with this is that you will have new shooters missing the target all together and constantly getting low scores. SH should be just a soft rear squeeze bag only as they are both really effective but require skill to use effectively. This way new shooters can get reasonable scores ‘to encourage participation’ but still work on marksmanship skills to become better shooters and hopefully use those skills in f class one day.

I hear what you say but don't really follow the logic. Missing the target is not something limited to new shooters, nor are low scores. Anyone who thinks they are going to step in to shooting accurately at our ranges is likely in for an education. I know I got one. That's the challenge though, isn't it?
Knowing what IS achievable and working towards it. A soft squeesable bag might be an option but how do you define it within the rules? TR shoot with no bag and no front rest and beginners achieve many a wayward shot. I've also seen a 45 with 9 from a very seasoned individual.
Those that want to improve, continue; those that don't give up.

Those that want to improve, continue; those that don't give up.

Couldn’t have said that better myself, and yes I’ve had plenty of education in terrible scores too!

That's a fine view to have 40yrs ago when more of the population had some level of exposure to firearms and probably a higher level of resilience. How many you tube videos are if people missing everything? Very very few so people begin with a certain level of expectation. For someone that has had zero exposure to firearms how easy is it going to be for them to grasp the concept of BC, stability and trajectory. Like I said that view is perfectly fine for those that are passionate about shooting, accuracy and improving and those people will likely start or migrate quickly to existing classes but that number of people is dwindling and will eventually lead to the end of shooting sports.

What other product / industry is just sitting around going "if they want it they can come and get it and better be prepared to work for it". No they are getting out there and working out how they can make it appeal to as many people as possible.

Start them off with something affordable that they can have some level of success with straight away and is transparent enough for them to see that they are on a level playing field with everyone else and the only thing they need to improve is their own skill. ie easy to do "well" but takes a long time to master.

[Tim L]

That's a fine view to have 40yrs ago when more of the population had some level of exposure to firearms and probably a higher level of resilience. How many you tube videos are if people missing everything? Very very few so people begin with a certain level of expectation. For someone that has had zero exposure to firearms how easy is it going to be for them to grasp the concept of BC, stability and trajectory. Like I said that view is perfectly fine for those that are passionate about shooting, accuracy and improving and those people will likely start or migrate quickly to existing classes but that number of people is dwindling and will eventually lead to the end of shooting sports.

What other product / industry is just sitting around going "if they want it they can come and get it and better be prepared to work for it". No they are getting out there and working out how they can make it appeal to as many people as possible.

Start them off with something affordable that they can have some level of success with straight away and is transparent enough for them to see that they are on a level playing field with everyone else and the only thing they need to improve is their own skill. ie easy to do "well" but takes a long time to master.

Your argument seems to be conflating a number of issues.
Of course people have expectations, the question is. Are they realistic?
In 2015 I was one of those guys who turned up at an NRAA range with a Sako 243 1:10. It would single hole group at 200, how much better can this F Open be?!!!
For those with zero exposure to firearms we have club guns. IE guns specifically capable of doing what we need them to do. It strikes me that many people on these boards are of the impression that any one can turn up with any rifle and should be able to achieve some sort of respectable score. I've no idea why. My 243 will perform to 500 maybe 6. My tikka 308 ctr is an awesome tool for dispatching pigs. Not much good at hitting a 5 ring from 800m though.
At least you are saying that manufacturers are coming to the table with a product that will, from the box, achieve accuracy at long range. But that IS NOT the intended audience of sporting hunter. These long range products are capable of being tuned to FO and FTR accuracy. A Woomera, in the right hands, is a formidable rifle. Is that the affordable starting block you mention? Or
Do we exclude these manufactured products in favor of the Howas and Tikkas? Or
Is it come one and all?
Has anyone looked on Hexta to see how these SH rifles shoot, the good ones i mean.
We have a very talented shooter who, with 6 strings at 800, 2 at 500 and 2 at 600 hasnt dropped a point. His 500 is actually a pair of 60.5s and last 800 shoot, 58s with 2 and 3.

We aren't actually sitting around doing nothing. What we are trying to do is find a way to bring shooters into "our" disciplines of shooting, but it's not quite as easy as saying "Have gun, will shoot."