Myths and Mysticism in Load Development

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DingoDeerHunter
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Re: Myths and Mysticism in Load Development

#91 Postby DingoDeerHunter » Thu Aug 24, 2023 6:22 am

Drop shot wrote:
BATattack wrote: why would they bother wasting time to argue with someone who would ultimately become their competition?


Lol, i don't think you need to worry about him becoming competition mate.


Finally you wrote something that resembles a fact!! Well done!!

jasmay
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Re: Myths and Mysticism in Load Development

#92 Postby jasmay » Thu Aug 24, 2023 9:36 am

Tim N wrote:Do we have an imoge eating popcorn


Best I could do Tim....

Screenshot 2023-08-24 093616.png
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DingoDeerHunter
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Re: Myths and Mysticism in Load Development

#93 Postby DingoDeerHunter » Fri Aug 25, 2023 6:15 pm

https://youtu.be/Eh06tRr4t-k?si=ZXXi1ac-IRIjzNtI

Here, Eric admits that Barrel Harmonics (prior to bullet exiting the muzzle) is only a theory, and he says “the reason that it’s a theory is we see group sizes change, the bullet doesn’t always go to the same spot”.

However, isn’t it the case that there is an inherent dispersion from shot to shot, regardless of what we do. The Stastical analysis by Blackburn Defense, and the large sample size testing by Hornady’s Lab, AB Lab and others shows that the ES and SD of shot dispersion grows with sample size. Therefore the evidence of barrel harmonics is just shot dispersion.

I hadn’t realised that, to date, there is no empirical data supporting the existence of barrel harmonics. But there apparently isn’t, it’s just a theory to explain shot dispersion. But is it good reasoning to treat it as such.

Vertical and Horizontal dispersion will be effected by velocity out of the muzzle, wind, BC (which itself is a gross up of angle of attack, centre of gravity, centre of pressure, spin rate).

Ignoring wind which is purely external, we are left with the others. Logically, in what ways could the internal ballistics have on those factors? The rifle basically gives two things to a projectile, velocity and spin. The dynamics of pressure over time from ignition to exit from the muzzle will impact velocity, simply as the quantity of push it imposes in the projectile as it is moved from the case neck into and through the rifling. It could be measured in Newtons or KiloNewtons. No matter how accurate our powder measurement, the tiny heterogeneous differences in The powder itself, it’s positioning in the case temperature and pressure, primer ignition dynamics all will sum up to a change in the Newtons that are acting on the bullet at different times during the bullets trip down the barrel. Small differences in the brass will impact chamber pressure, it will sum with those mentioned previously. Then the manner in which each bullet engages the lands will introduce an amount of resistance or the pressure developed in the chamber and so the velocity of the projectile in the initial inch of the rifling. After that the resistance of the rifling will add a variable, each firing adds some material to the rifling (copper, carbon some lead from the primer compound). shot to shot there is variance in the resistance of the rifling.

Then the physical properties of the chamber, bolt and barrel will react to the ignition and pressure with small variance from different pressures generated.

Finally projectile to projectile weight and shape tolerances will impact its travel through the barrel.

All these things add up to different velocity and spin rate of the bullet shot to shot.

These are enough to explain shot dispersion together, even if we take the human marksmanship variable out of the equation. In accordance with Occam’s razor; we don’t need to introduce barrel harmonics in the absence of evidence for it. That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

The aim of reloading is to get to as close to a homogenous Newtons of force acting on the bullet from ignition to muzzle exit. The question is, what methods in reloading contribute to uniformity and can demonstrably get us closer to homogeneity.

I don’t doubt that a certain rifle will tend more toward homogeneity with a certain bullet and load. There’s going to be an ideal pressure scenario for a rifle and projectile. The best proxy for this homogeneity is velocity SD and ES. Group sizes are useless to us because their sample size is compromised by statistical variance from external and human factors. Muzzle velocity has less confounding factors.

Reloading is the G O. The munitions produced by people in this sport is superior to factory made by a good margin. The attention to detail and discipline of production is a great example that even in the modern world handmade wins.

If you can get that bullet to spit out at low SD and ES’s of velocity, it’s a thing. I don’t know how much Spin rate will be effected by the rate of acceleration along the barrel. I can imagine that 2 projectiles could come out of the muzzle at the same velocity but that the rate of acceleration from ignition to exit from the muzzle; so this might be a potential confounding factor. But I suspect if we’re getting a low SD low ES velocity this is a good proxy for low SD low ES spin rate.

Speed is king, just not necessarily faster being better. My guns got an ideal speed, trouble is finding it.

DingoDeerHunter
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Re: Myths and Mysticism in Load Development

#94 Postby DingoDeerHunter » Sat Aug 26, 2023 7:59 am

110,000 frames a second - recoil before bullet exit but not “harmonic” movement.

https://youtu.be/nF8HR35NDdU?si=xzEiCco3YYmtWIv8

jasmay
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Re: Myths and Mysticism in Load Development

#95 Postby jasmay » Sat Aug 26, 2023 8:55 am


jasmay
Posts: 1294
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:26 pm

Re: Myths and Mysticism in Load Development

#96 Postby jasmay » Sat Aug 26, 2023 9:07 am

If vibrations/harmonics do not exist, yet stretching & vibrations are able to be measured using a barrel strain gauge, which is evidence that vibrations/harmonics…..

Strain gauges shouldn’t work??? :-k

Gyro
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Re: Myths and Mysticism in Load Development

#97 Postby Gyro » Sat Aug 26, 2023 9:27 am

I'm stayn in my tiny myopic world and will suggest if tests are done without an accelerometer fitted and/or from a railgun then flaws exist in the test and the results ?

jasmay
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Re: Myths and Mysticism in Load Development

#98 Postby jasmay » Sat Aug 26, 2023 9:50 am

Gyro wrote:I'm stayn in my tiny myopic world and will suggest if tests are done without an accelerometer fitted and/or from a railgun then flaws exist in the test and the results ?


How would one resolve the argument that barrel harmonics do/don’t exist?

We have observational evidence through videos showing barrel vibration. (I have some that I’ve done myself but are only on my PC).

We have barrel vibration/pressure waves measured through piezoelectric strain gauges.

Yet these are apparently not enough to qualify their existence.

What evidence would be required?

Gyro
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Re: Myths and Mysticism in Load Development

#99 Postby Gyro » Sat Aug 26, 2023 10:32 am

Bloody good question cobber !!! Get the right test setup ? An some data to back it up ?

Trouble is it’s very hard to prove many things in the shooting game. Combine that with some not wanting to see any more than what they believe. Throw in some confirmation bias.

I’m just back from the range firing the gun I will bring to Belmont in October, I reckon it’s going well and I just need to drive it right. Plus components are a real problem now so too much testing is out !

These days I don’t care that much. The top guys know LOTS of stuff just about setup which puts them way ahead !!!! And they aint gonna tell us much here. And maybe a tuner can help and give u an edge ? Just a tiny edge will help. Dunno but it’s interesting times with guys drilling down into this stuff.

Gyro
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Re: Myths and Mysticism in Load Development

#100 Postby Gyro » Sat Aug 26, 2023 10:59 am

What I aim to do here is put stuff up that may help newer shooters. Not to be ‘right’.

I used to reckon ‘nodes’ were just BS until I went to our Nationals here in 2016 shooting FTR and learnt a good lesson which I wrote up on this forum back then and will add in here.

.........Just a brief story about a node prahblem. In 2016 I shot our Nationals at Trentham in FTR. The final is just one 15 shot detail shot at 900 yards on the Saturday but it’s the three days prior to that where all the shooting takes place. Trentham is one of those 4-seasons-in-one-day places. So we started shooting on the Wednesday ( it was a COLD day ) and the gun shot like a dog. Lots of vertical. I was happy with my wind calls but ended up way down the field after day one. Day two was considerably warmer and actually ended up with the sun blazing down and my wife at one point applied sunscreen to my legs while I lay on the mound. The gun shot really well that day. We shot four ranges that day ( 500y, 600y, 900y and 1000y ) and my 200 grain Berger Hybrids went where they were supposed to be going. There were 36 shooters in the field that day, across both FO and FTR and I agged the highest, just for that one hot day. The third day was cold and the gun returned to shooting like a dog again so I limped along …… anyway I tell the story absolutely to not be about ME and what might have been or blah blah blah. The story is about stuff that can and does happen when ya aint smart enough !.......... unquote.

Now it’s fashionable to question if nodes exist … and on it goes.

Drop shot
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Re: Myths and Mysticism in Load Development

#101 Postby Drop shot » Sat Aug 26, 2023 12:11 pm

I don't know what dingo's goal is lol, seems to be to just post more waffle than a breakfast menu to bait people into responding so he can talk down to them from a position of superiority he's granted himself because he's read a book....

Harmonics are a thing, buy a tuning fork you can see it, but even dry firing, 3 and 4 prong flash hiders will ring because the vibration moving down the barrel is transferred to them.

Barrel whip is what vid 2 shows. Which is definitely a thing. The barrel is only hanging on to the receiver by 1" of thread. The end of the barrel is free to move under pressure and torque forces from the bullet during it's travel down the barrel. Whip isn't up and down, it makes a figure 8 If you load up a series of shots from min to max charge, you can actually see this occurring on paper (dependant on barrel contour).

If you put a weight on the barrel, or increase the barrels thickness, you can mute the whip. If you hit a tuning fork and touch it with your finger, you can mute the vibrations - the harder you press, the more the vibrations are muted - same theory applies to the barrel.

I'm preaching to the choir though.

there's a whole lot of variables that weren't isolated, and some that can't be isolated, identified or have a value attributed to them, and some of the ones dingo hit on are why the tests outcomes have come into question - making him come DANGEROUSLY close to opening his mind up enough to maybe question the findings.

Bryan was in the snipers hide forums (or at least someone from his team was) addressing some of these and admitting they'd need to be explored during further testing. Because Bryan works in pure data, he has no emotional investment in his findings, which makes him a very valuable person - so if Bryan will change his mind based on findings, why are there people here with flaming torches and pitch forks ready to burn at the stake anyone who dares not immediately and wholly side with Bryans findings, when in 12 months, they might be different? Makes you look pretty dumb.

There's a quote from Snipers hide i like about the tests;

"If ya'll go out and shoot a 5 shot group, and 4 go through the same hole, and one shot goes wide, ya'll call the flier and text your buddies about how good your gun shoots.
If ya'll go out and shoot a 5 shot group, and all 5 is touchin', ya'll take a pic and put it on the socials.
If ya'll shoot 100 more groups, and overlay them groups, but ya'll ain't removing those fliers from the results, ya'll will look at that over-all group and say that gun ain't worth a damn. Sometimes too much results can be worse than not enough. Ya'll be sending guns back for warranty more than ya'll be shootin!"

Which i think is a good way of looking at it.

Also attached pics - just for interest

7 x Ladder Tests over 5 different days - this is how we check barrel health and temp sensitivity.
2 x 10 shot group tests plotting where the impacts converged at 300y
GRT data.
Then finally 1 x 5 shot string across the chrono to confirm.

There's plenty of ways to find a load - do what works for you
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DingoDeerHunter
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Re: Myths and Mysticism in Load Development

#102 Postby DingoDeerHunter » Sat Aug 26, 2023 2:13 pm

jasmay wrote:
Gyro wrote:I'm stayn in my tiny myopic world and will suggest if tests are done without an accelerometer fitted and/or from a railgun then flaws exist in the test and the results ?


How would one resolve the argument that barrel harmonics do/don’t exist?

We have observational evidence through videos showing barrel vibration. (I have some that I’ve done myself but are only on my PC).

We have barrel vibration/pressure waves measured through piezoelectric strain gauges.

Yet these are apparently not enough to qualify their existence.

What evidence would be required?



The issue is harmonics before the muzzle exit - showing pics of barrels moving after the bullet exits are irrelevant.

Of course the barrel moves but how much if any prior to bullet exit is the unsolved question which the guy at ammolytics is trying to answer.

But you lads all just wanna rage because….??

Drop shot
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Re: Myths and Mysticism in Load Development

#103 Postby Drop shot » Sat Aug 26, 2023 3:35 pm

But you lads all just wanna rage because….??[/quote]


Well, the only person that seems to be raging is you. You've been called out on that a few times - but if you feel there's any angst coming back your way, it's because your attitude sucks.

You've come in here to lecture, talk down to, bully and belittle, and when people push back, you get defensive and go on the attack.

You aren't here for discussion, you are here for an argument.

Some people don't like that sort of behaviour

jasmay
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Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:26 pm

Re: Myths and Mysticism in Load Development

#104 Postby jasmay » Sat Aug 26, 2023 4:59 pm

A lot comes to mind around things that could add further value to this topic, but logic and time is telling me the best response is:

DF8E75DC-A892-47D2-9F4C-78F5752B7D1E.jpeg
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DingoDeerHunter
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Re: Myths and Mysticism in Load Development

#105 Postby DingoDeerHunter » Sun Aug 27, 2023 4:50 am

jasmay wrote:A lot comes to mind around things that could add further value to this topic, but logic and time is telling me the best response is:

DF8E75DC-A892-47D2-9F4C-78F5752B7D1E.jpeg

So the guy who has a commercial interest in selling barrel tuners starts posting personal attacks on the person questioning whether there is any science evidencing any effect of barrel tuners.

Not surprising.

And Drop Shot wants to call me a bully, another personal attack. Why?

If you don’t agree, put forth your arguments, if you’re not mature enough and can’t deal with people responding to your arguments and not agreeing with you without escalating to personal attacks then you shouldn’t own a gun.


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