Queen’s on manual targets

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Tim N
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Queen’s on manual targets

#1 Postby Tim N » Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:04 pm

Hi All
Someone mentioned recently that the South Australia Queen’s is moving to electronic targets.
I’m hoping that’s not the case.
If so I’m assuming the Vic Queen’s will be the only one left on manual targets?
Just thinking the future Aussie shooters will struggle with international competition as it is on manual targets....
I know this topic is an irritation to some folks embracing the change but for me it’s the type of competition I have enjoyed most, being able to watch other competitors shoot while waiting your turn.
There’s always the chance of a slow marker but you can challenge a score if needed.
Anyway if someone could confirm SA has moved to electronics
Thanks
We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training. Archilochos 680-645 BC

AlanF
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Re: Queen’s on manual targets

#2 Postby AlanF » Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:16 pm

I agree with everything you say Tim, but ETs are taking over everywhere. Despite their shortcomings, for most clubs and associations they are now the target system of choice, and not too far down the track manual marking will be a thing of the past. Presumably it'll happen internationally too, but we seem to be ahead of the pack. Until the world catches up it will put our international F-Class teams at a disadvantage, but there are efforts being made to run Bisley style meetings on manuals. We've scheduled a weekend at Rosedale early next month to have a club Bisley event on manuals as a rehearsal for a bigger event to attract shooters who want practice for international comps. I know there's been several similar events around the country in recent years, including in SA. Would be good to get an annual "circuit" of Bisley shoots going.

Tim N
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Re: Queen’s on manual targets

#3 Postby Tim N » Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:11 pm

Hopefully a bisley comp can become a reality :!:
I guess there’s always match rifle
We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training. Archilochos 680-645 BC

Martin
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Re: Queen’s on manual targets

#4 Postby Martin » Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:22 pm

Other countries (eg USA) have a culture of competitor marking so this has delayed the rollout of e-targets in major competitions. I think I read somewhere that the US-NRA has not approved any e-target systems for top level competitions.

disb
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Re: Queen’s on manual targets

#5 Postby disb » Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:39 pm

Martin wrote:Other countries (eg USA) have a culture of competitor marking so this has delayed the rollout of e-targets in major competitions. I think I read somewhere that the US-NRA has not approved any e-target systems for top level competitions.



Correct

https://youtu.be/inzxFEX9ytw

RDavies
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Re: Queen’s on manual targets

#6 Postby RDavies » Sun Oct 17, 2021 11:04 pm

Tim N wrote:Hopefully a bisley comp can become a reality :!:
I guess there’s always match rifle

It is looking like Queens shoots have moved away from what the rest of the world knows as F class to become an Australian style E class. ie 2 shots and 10 rapid fire, starting at 300/500 . Fair enough, it allows new shooters and recreational club shooters to get respectable scores and gets entry fee paying bums on seats so to speak. I do understand not many shooters have aspirations to shoot at a high level, and mainly enjoy shooting high scores.

For now it is looking like Match rifle F class is becoming the only competition for those wanting to do F class similar to what is shot in other countries (longer ranges, longer, slower shot strings proper targets). I have been told that running "Bisley style" shoots is elitist as it discriminates against shooters with less ability, but is it really such a bad thing to have some championship shoots aimed towards higher level competition?

I fully understand that many regular Queens shooters are no longer interested in travelling to other states to shoot, or do Bisley style comps or traditional F competition and that is fine, but surely there is room for a series of shoots around the country for the more ambitious shooters to travel to?
Last edited by RDavies on Sun Oct 17, 2021 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

RDavies
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Re: Queen’s on manual targets

#7 Postby RDavies » Sun Oct 17, 2021 11:13 pm

AlanF wrote:I agree with everything you say Tim, but ETs are taking over everywhere. Despite their shortcomings, for most clubs and associations they are now the target system of choice, and not too far down the track manual marking will be a thing of the past. Presumably it'll happen internationally too, but we seem to be ahead of the pack. Until the world catches up it will put our international F-Class teams at a disadvantage, but there are efforts being made to run Bisley style meetings on manuals. We've scheduled a weekend at Rosedale early next month to have a club Bisley event on manuals as a rehearsal for a bigger event to attract shooters who want practice for international comps. I know there's been several similar events around the country in recent years, including in SA. Would be good to get an annual "circuit" of Bisley shoots going.

Myself and a few others Im chatting to would be keen to hear when you are holding some of these competitions. A few of us will likely carpool, or fly in fly out together to come for a shot.

TomS
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Re: Queen’s on manual targets

#8 Postby TomS » Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:13 am

One challenge maybe becoming more of an issue? is finding people willing to mark targets at OPMs? Maybe we don't pay enough or the offer of casual work is less attractive . I prefer manual marking but ET seem to get the job done (generally very well).

Martin
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Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 6:36 pm

Re: Queen’s on manual targets

#9 Postby Martin » Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:10 am

I recently saw an interesting competition idea on Erik Cortina's YouTube channel.

From memory, qualification points are awarded to competitors over a period of time at different regional matches. The top 32 competitors are then invited to a match which is shot at 1000y. The format is a seeded double elimination knock-out, shooting bisley pair style. There was a consolation match for those that were eliminated early.

From what I saw it was well received as it removed some of the inherent "luck" we have in current matches. It was on e-targets, but as both competitors shared the same target each round this probably addressed this as a variable.

agro
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Location: Regional Vic.

Re: Queen’s on manual targets

#10 Postby agro » Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:25 am

There is a question I haven't got an answer to yet, "What e-targets have been certified for use by the NRAA to be used at National, state and OPM's levels"??
I have contacted the NRAA over a week ago asking this exact question and have not yet received an answer or reply.
My question is "if they haven't been certified for use, why are we using them??".
I agree that e-targets will be the future but their introduction hasn't been controlled. I don't see their use noted in the SSR's either.
At the moment their reliability and accuracy is not yet at a proficient level.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inzxFEX9ytw

PeteFox
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Location: 7321 Tas.

Re: Queen’s on manual targets

#11 Postby PeteFox » Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:06 pm

agro wrote: I don't see their use noted in the SSR's either.


The phrase "electronic targets" appears 162 times in the SSR's. I think it covers it,

The NRAA isn't in the business of certification. It would cost many $1000's to run a certification program and as far as I can see there are no criteria to assess against.

What is an acceptable error? How many repetitions of the acceptable error is required to verify that the criteria are met. The number of rounds fired and hours spent kills the idea immediately. This is precisely why the NRA (US) haven't certified any electronic targets - it's just too hard and expensive.

Ultimately the market will decide.

and
Apart from some teams and nationals, the NRAA doesn't have a role in the running of competitions. It's up to the event organiser.

Pete

agro
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Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:29 pm
Location: Regional Vic.

Re: Queen’s on manual targets

#12 Postby agro » Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:36 pm

I refer you to this section as what would be the required criteria,

6. PERMISSABLE ERROR IN SHOT LOCATION

6.1. Electronic targets shall be capable of locating shots within 1mm of the centre of the actual shot hole on
the target and in any of the operating environmental conditions encountered in Australia. Whilst shots
are gauged at present to tighter tolerances, it is recognised that the practice of pasting existing paper
targets onto frames and environmental factors invariably introduces some wider tolerances, estimated at
least 1mm. Electronic targets should at least match this current capability.

Can this be established on any of the systems being used yet??

superx10
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Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2015 9:32 am

Re: Queen’s on manual targets

#13 Postby superx10 » Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:15 pm

I have just looked up the times to shoot a 600 yard match at Belmont MDRA comp om the weekend random picked a 600 yard match the times are as follows for 10 shots
f Standard 51 seconds
f open 1.41 min
FTR 2.50 min

Its not hard to work out the average time between shots and some people can use the machine gun fire tactics to win..... I feel a delay should be used in the software to make it more fare for everyone. Just my two bobs worth.

Tim N
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Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:18 pm
Location: Branxton NSW

Re: Queen’s on manual targets

#14 Postby Tim N » Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:41 pm

The tide has well and truly changed against manual targets so this discussion is probably flogging a dead horse, I’m keen to support manual comps where possible.
We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training. Archilochos 680-645 BC

willow
Posts: 441
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2015 9:51 pm

Re: Queen’s on manual targets

#15 Postby willow » Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:57 pm

Martin wrote:I recently saw an interesting competition idea on Erik Cortina's YouTube channel.

From memory, qualification points are awarded to competitors over a period of time at different regional matches. The top 32 competitors are then invited to a match which is shot at 1000y. The format is a seeded double elimination knock-out, shooting bisley pair style. There was a consolation match for those that were eliminated early.

From what I saw it was well received as it removed some of the inherent "luck" we have in current matches. It was on e-targets, but as both competitors shared the same target each round this probably addressed this as a variable.


Yes, the V2 Finale looked to be a very well run (and sponsored) event where the top 32 got to shoot off in pairs at 1000 yards before 1 winner was ultimately determined. I liked the concept a lot, although I think they shot on electronic targets for that match.

I've only had very limited experience shooting on manual targets, with the 2019 NSW Queens shot on manual targets. Personally I loved it and would be happy for all Queens events to be shot on manual targets. I think part of the issue lies with having appropriate targets which can be pulled manually efficiently, and then finding good target pullers. This is where I like the US system where all competitors are squadded and take turns at shooting and pulling targets during the match.


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