Rimfire F class in Australia

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RDavies
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Rimfire F class in Australia

#1 Postby RDavies » Tue May 25, 2021 4:53 pm

Does anyone know which ranges are shooting rimfire F class in Australia?
It has gained popularity overseas and I hear Dubbo is going to start 300y Rimfire F class at their range and 200m Rimfire fly is becoming very popular around Australia
For 100yd F class the clubs use the stationary SSAA target frames and just stick the 12 bullseye targets (2 sighter bullseyes and 10 for score, double the target for 20 shot match), same as used overseas.
For 200, 300y, clubs could use either stationary target frames or use conventional 300y F class targets as myself and a few others have used on a few club days.

John23
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Re: Rimfire F class in Australia

#2 Postby John23 » Tue May 25, 2021 6:16 pm

Is 300 yard the standard of what they do ?
Seems like the scale is wrong .

I am a regular 200 fly shooter and have shot 300m before for fun .
58moa vertical by memory which is quite the long shot

bruce moulds
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Re: Rimfire F class in Australia

#3 Postby bruce moulds » Tue May 25, 2021 6:38 pm

good thread.
rimfire fclass might well be the best way to create a path into fclass as opposed to destroying it.
rimfire single shot falling blocks have taken off in american black powder silhouette circles, shooting 50, 100, 150 and 200 at the four targets sized to suit the job.
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880
http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

RDavies
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Re: Rimfire F class in Australia

#4 Postby RDavies » Tue May 25, 2021 7:58 pm

John23 wrote:Is 300 yard the standard of what they do ?
Seems like the scale is wrong .

I am a regular 200 fly shooter and have shot 300m before for fun .
58moa vertical by memory which is quite the long shot

Overseas they go out to 300yds, but will often shoot 100 and 200yds.
I have shot 300yd F class club days 6 or 7 times at 300yds (not meters) at a few different ranges and I think it worked out just over 50moa.
I have one scope set up in offset rings zeroed for 300y, (can only shoot 200 and 300y with this scope) but many scopes will go from 100-300yds

RDavies
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Re: Rimfire F class in Australia

#5 Postby RDavies » Tue May 25, 2021 8:11 pm

bruce moulds wrote:good thread.
rimfire fclass might well be the best way to create a path into fclass as opposed to destroying it.
rimfire single shot falling blocks have taken off in american black powder silhouette circles, shooting 50, 100, 150 and 200 at the four targets sized to suit the job.
bruce.

So far I have only done 300y F class with a dirt cheap Brno Model 2 but have just bought a used (also cheap) Anschutz to do 200M fly (and hopefully 300y F class). The others I saw who used rimfires for F class also used reasonably priced 22s.
At Fly shoots, in Australia you will see a few full on custom BR spec 22s, but many just use regular type 22s for a bit of cheap fun.
One benefit of Rimfire comps is many ranges have noise limitations with no shooting allowed on most Sundays. With rimfire, noise is not an issue so they get to use the now redundant 300yd mounds an extra day of the week. Night time shoots in summer will also be more of an option.

bruce moulds
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Re: Rimfire F class in Australia

#6 Postby bruce moulds » Tue May 25, 2021 8:30 pm

there are figures for wind deflection with rimfires related to centrefires.
with ammo tuned to the rifle (this can take a lot of work) 200 might be like 800 for a centrefire.
you have to read the wind and hold good vert.
just like centrefire fclass.
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880

http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

Tiger
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Location: Canberra ACT

Re: Rimfire F class in Australia

#7 Postby Tiger » Wed May 26, 2021 3:26 pm

G’day Rod,
Canberra Rifle Club shoots Rimfire F-Class every month (next shoot this Saturday) at 100 and 200m on manual targets with a decimal target.

We’ve developed the course of fire after a little trial and error, 5 convertible sighted and 15 to score for each shooter at 100 and 200.

It’s reasonably popular, but the manual targets make it a little slow and necessitate competitor marking, the Club is currently investigating sourcing electronic targets with a few leads where they have been used successfully in Europe out to 300m with rimfire.

The experience of adopting electronic targets for centrefire competition showed that it made it far easier for a broader spectrum of people to participate. We think going to electronic targets for the Rimfire will increase participation as well.

Cheers

Dave Groves.

PeteFox
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Re: Rimfire F class in Australia

#8 Postby PeteFox » Wed May 26, 2021 4:22 pm

In my view shooting 300yd F Class rimfire for practice for F class centrefire is a bit over the top. Way too far for meaningful wind reading practice.
I have done the ballistic calculations (using Strelok Pro) for rimfire (Lapua Centre-X) and centrefire (284Win, 180 Berger Hybrid@ 2700fps) in a 10mph wind @ 90 deg in the two tables below. The Lapua ammo used is subsonic and the figures might improve using high velocity ammo but then every shot has to go transonic so accuracy will suffer.
Rimfire
Screenshot_20210526-155242_Strelok Pro.jpg

Centrefire
Screenshot_20210526-155819_Strelok Pro.jpg


The MOA shift due to a 10mph wind is 3.2moa for rimfire @ 100yd and 3.2moa for centrefire @ 600 yards.

The moa shift due to the same wind is 6.0moa for rimfire @ 200yd and 5.9moa for centrefire @ 1000 yards

At 300 yards the rimfire wind shift equivalent in centrefire is 1300 yards (a lottery).

It seems to me that 150 yards is about on the money.

Pete
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bruce moulds
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Re: Rimfire F class in Australia

#9 Postby bruce moulds » Wed May 26, 2021 7:02 pm

pete,
try these figures for comparison.
540 gn bullet, 0.458 calibre, b.c. 0.5, mv 1300 fps.
i have shot that an ammount at 1000 yds, and consider it doable with a bit of learning and effort.
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880

http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

RDavies
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Location: Singleton NSW

Re: Rimfire F class in Australia

#10 Postby RDavies » Wed May 26, 2021 8:34 pm

PeteFox wrote:In my view shooting 300yd F Class rimfire for practice for F class centrefire is a bit over the top. Way too far for meaningful wind reading practice.
I have done the ballistic calculations (using Strelok Pro) for rimfire (Lapua Centre-X) and centrefire (284Win, 180 Berger Hybrid@ 2700fps) in a 10mph wind @ 90 deg in the two tables below. The Lapua ammo used is subsonic and the figures might improve using high velocity ammo but then every shot has to go transonic so accuracy will suffer.
Rimfire
Screenshot_20210526-155242_Strelok Pro.jpg
Centrefire
Screenshot_20210526-155819_Strelok Pro.jpg

The MOA shift due to a 10mph wind is 3.2moa for rimfire @ 100yd and 3.2moa for centrefire @ 600 yards.

The moa shift due to the same wind is 6.0moa for rimfire @ 200yd and 5.9moa for centrefire @ 1000 yards

At 300 yards the rimfire wind shift equivalent in centrefire is 1300 yards (a lottery).

It seems to me that 150 yards is about on the money.

Pete


Great comparison. It does seem that 100 and 200yds or meters would be the most practical unless conditions are calm. I have shot it a few times at 300 and yes it certainly did move around more than at 200, but I was still able to get meaningful feedback from the wind, so it wasnt so much of a lottery. If you shot at a windy range (say like Lower Light, I could see 300y being a bit too much but it was worthwhile in lighter conditions at the ranges I shot at. (though they did move back to 200y on a windier day).

So all in al, 100y/m would be good wind practice for 600y F class and 200y/m for 1000y F class.

(And 300 for gentle days if you want to shoot alongside other centre fire F class shooters at club days, when it just feels a bit silly using a centrefire F class gun at such relatively short distances.)

Rich4
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Re: Rimfire F class in Australia

#11 Postby Rich4 » Wed May 26, 2021 10:41 pm

Target size will be key, even expensive ammo will have large enough velocity spreads to be difficult, my son and I regularly shoot at 300 yds at a 12” target, so roughly 4moa? The smle trainer is better than my la101, which is still 6” of vertical there with Lapua centre X, although we usually use federal 714 which uses all of the plate, check out “rimfire central 50@200” there is all types of ammunition tested by various shooters at 200yds

tachyon
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Re: Rimfire F class in Australia

#12 Postby tachyon » Wed May 26, 2021 11:18 pm

PeteFox wrote:In my view shooting 300yd F Class rimfire for practice for F class centrefire is a bit over the top. Way too far for meaningful wind reading practice.
I have done the ballistic calculations (using Strelok Pro) for rimfire (Lapua Centre-X) and centrefire (284Win, 180 Berger Hybrid@ 2700fps) in a 10mph wind @ 90 deg in the two tables below. The Lapua ammo used is subsonic and the figures might improve using high velocity ammo but then every shot has to go transonic so accuracy will suffer.

The MOA shift due to a 10mph wind is 3.2moa for rimfire @ 100yd and 3.2moa for centrefire @ 600 yards.

The moa shift due to the same wind is 6.0moa for rimfire @ 200yd and 5.9moa for centrefire @ 1000 yards

At 300 yards the rimfire wind shift equivalent in centrefire is 1300 yards (a lottery).

It seems to me that 150 yards is about on the money.

Pete


Hi Pete, your rimfire data is optimistic. The G1 BC is around 0.169 so JBM ballistics says the comparison looks like this:

Screen Shot 2021-05-26 at 11.02.26 pm.png


Screen Shot 2021-05-26 at 11.04.04 pm.png


The fundamental problem with 300 yards and 22LR is the need for 48 MOA of elevation. Given most scopes do 60 MOA of elevation (giving only 30 up unless you run a tilted mount) most scopes mounted on most 22LR will not be able to dial enough elevation. If you could add a tilted rail it would need 25MOA on it, but of course 22LRs tend to have dovetails so now you need special rings...

If you assume most scope mounted on most 22LR rifles can do 30 MOA then 200 is about the practical limit

The wind drift comparators are

50 RF ~ 300 CF
100RF ~ 600 CF
150RF ~ 750 CF
200RF ~ 900 CF
250RF ~ 1050 CF
300RF ~ 1200 CF
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tachyon
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Re: Rimfire F class in Australia

#13 Postby tachyon » Wed May 26, 2021 11:35 pm

Rich4 wrote:Target size will be key, even expensive ammo will have large enough velocity spreads to be difficult, my son and I regularly shoot at 300 yds at a 12” target, so roughly 4moa? The smle trainer is better than my la101, which is still 6” of vertical there with Lapua centre X, although we usually use federal 714 which uses all of the plate, check out “rimfire central 50@200” there is all types of ammunition tested by various shooters at 200yds


Here is a link to the 50@200 analysis - which covers a vast range of 22LR ammo putting 50 rounds onto paper at 200 yards.

https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/s ... ?t=1129343

Here is one example group using Lapua $1 a shot 22LR ammo

lcx2.jpeg


The point being the vertical on the main group is over 4" (so over 2MOA) and the total group is just over 6" (so over 3MOA)

And this is for premium ammo. Here is a slightly better 2MOA vertical for another well-known premium brand - Eley Match

em2.jpeg


Here is what CCI standard looks like - 4MOA of vertical

ccisv200455v.jpeg
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RDavies
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Re: Rimfire F class in Australia

#14 Postby RDavies » Thu May 27, 2021 10:45 pm

I wonder how good some of the guns and/or shooters were with some of the groups shown in the other posts. Looking at the Fly shoot site http://www.500mflyshooter.com.au/index. ... e-records/ There are a few 200M groups under an inch and others just over that at 200M . Obviously not everyone will be shooting that accurately but there is no reason why the better F class shooters cant get close to this in suitable weather.

My dirt cheap (but still reasonably accurate) Brno, weighing about 2kg and with no tuner and a standard stock was shooting just inside a 300y 6 ring (3 inches) at 200yds, though I admit it would not hold 6 ring at the full 300yds (maybe 5 ring)

Rich4
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Re: Rimfire F class in Australia

#15 Postby Rich4 » Fri May 28, 2021 6:25 am

I think that it’s a reasonable indication of factory guns as opposed to customs, rimfire is about tuning the gun to the ammo, 180’ to centrefire, gunhandling is even more important due to dwell time in the barrel, I find it a perfect centrefire training tool because of these limits, although I keep it to an ammunition that is affordable/effective to get the full benefit of plenty of practice as the quality rimfire is as expensive as centrefire ammunition, which to me defeats the purpose.


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