Dropping Long Ranges from Events

[Brad Y]

I dont like bringing things off topic too far, but Bindi- the notion to remove 1000yds from the queens is plain stupid. They only shoot 1000yds there 3-4 times a year I think compared to shorter ranges so many more times and it needs to be shot more often for people to get better at it. The world championships is all about 1000yds so people need to learn to shoot it if they are going to progress in the sport. I know for some its still an exercise for a quaint shoot and then a cup of tea and a biscuit after, but this is the 2013 not 1937. People are in it now to compete. And your not a serious competitior these days if your not comfortable shooting 1000yds. If you dont want to shoot it, just withdraw at that range- many do. That is my opinion and will leave it at that. Start a new thread if you want to debate it.

Back to the original topic, Im a WA shooter who currently has no opportunity to go to Rosedale, however my opinion is shooters overall want the opportunity to shoot. They actually enjoy the trigger time- I do too. So I would look at keeping it as is, again using my argument about 1000yds from above. To me keeping as many ranges as possible will even out the field (generally) You need to be consistent all the way through the event to win. If you have two brilliant rounds and two bad ones your in with a chance to do well, but having more ranges to shoot will test the shooter more. I thought that was the whole idea about prize shoots. The person who rises up and outclasses the rest of the field over the whole event is the deserved winner. I have seen a few sports change events because some people want particular things gone to suit themselves and make it easier for them to compete. To me you might as well let that person arrange their own prize shoot for them to win. Otherwise I say go with history and keep it as is. It sounds like a great shoot and would love to get over there some day. Hopefully in the next few years I get more of an opportunity to do so.

[Bindi2]

I dont like bringing things off topic too far, but Bindi- the notion to remove 1000yds from the queens is plain stupid. They only shoot 1000yds there 3-4 times a year I think compared to shorter ranges so many more times and it needs to be shot more often for people to get better at it. The world championships is all about 1000yds so people need to learn to shoot it if they are going to progress in the sport. I know for some its still an exercise for a quaint shoot and then a cup of tea and a biscuit after, but this is the 2013 not 1937. People are in it now to compete. And your not a serious competitior these days if your not comfortable shooting 1000yds. If you dont want to shoot it, just withdraw at that range- many do. That is my opinion and will leave it at that. Start a new thread if you want to debate it.

Back to the original topic, Im a WA shooter who currently has no opportunity to go to Rosedale, however my opinion is shooters overall want the opportunity to shoot. They actually enjoy the trigger time- I do too. So I would look at keeping it as is, again using my argument about 1000yds from above. To me keeping as many ranges as possible will even out the field (generally) You need to be consistent all the way through the event to win. If you have two brilliant rounds and two bad ones your in with a chance to do well, but having more ranges to shoot will test the shooter more. I thought that was the whole idea about prize shoots. The person who rises up and outclasses the rest of the field over the whole event is the deserved winner. I have seen a few sports change events because some people want particular things gone to suit themselves and make it easier for them to compete. To me you might as well let that person arrange their own prize shoot for them to win. Otherwise I say go with history and keep it as is. It sounds like a great shoot and would love to get over there some day. Hopefully in the next few years I get more of an opportunity to do so.

[AlanF]

The first post above from Brad Y has been moved here to start a new topic.

We have proposals to drop the 1000yds from Rosedale, and from the WA Queens, and I heard recently that SARA may abandon the 900m from its Queens series. What's going on???? Is this a push from TR shooters only? If it is, then F-Class shooters need to stand up as a group and protest. Richard Braund, are you able to tell us where FCASA stands on the SARA 900m issue?

Alan

[Brad Y]

Thanks Alan, I believe this is of great concern. We recently sent a team of shooters to USA who had to shoot a lot at 1000yds. They came back champions. State and local rifle assoications- even clubs, are kidding themselves if they want to remove long range shooting from events just because it might be "hard". How can we all as members of the NRAA and citizens of the same country expect to be represented by suitable team over in 4 years time to defend that title if at club, DRA and state level we dont shoot 1000yds.

I remind those who are pushing for this to look at the history of the sport- it includes 1000yd shooting. Why ruin that just so you can have a better chance at winning? I know it might daunting for new shooters to compete that far, but nobody is holding a knife to peoples throat and saying you MUST shoot. I see nothing wrong at a prize shoot if someone doesnt want to shoot a particular range for them to not shoot it. Everyone has the right to do what they want. But dont spoil it for others.

Quite often shoots are won or lost at 1000yds- that is pretty obvious. And I think the call to remove it is probably coming from some of those who have been burnt at 1000yds. Bill Hallam has made the same comment that last two years running when conditions got tough at 1000yds in the queens- How can people expect to shoot good scores at ranges where there is little to no practice opportunity? I agree totally. If we actually embrace 1000yd shooting a bit more it might be a more successful range.

Personally I dislike shooting at 300 and I often will take my varmint rifles to the range if there is no prize shoots in the near future and have a play with them. But in a prize shoot you need to make every range count, including 300 and 1000 and of course all in between. Terry Sheedy was the only person not to have a train wreck in our queens at one range or another and he took the badge home.

Ive said my bit, I dont mean to offend anyone even though I probably did. End of the day to me, just shut up, shoot 1000yds, and smile. Life is too short to hate 1000yd shooting

[bartman007]

I think that the State Events need to showcase all ranges in the program. That means shooting 300 through to 1000 yards if their State range has it. Alternatively 300 through to 900 meters if their range has it.

To take out particular distances for a State level event just because people won't come is not on. You need to maintain the prestige of the event. To be the Winner, means that you have conquered all possible ranges, and competitors.

I'd think that Queen's winners would like to think that they are comparable to winners in other states. So the range selection should be maintained across all states.

The extreme would be to say, lets only shoot 300 yards, because people wont come if we make it too hard. I wouldn't go to that Queen's, and simply shoot one of the others instead!

[Bindi2]

AlanF
From my posts on the other thread i am standing up to keep 1000yds and to get 1200yds on the new Pinjar range in WA. 1500yds + would have been doable but the ball was dropped by the TR shooters (we dont shoot it ) before FC was aware, 1200yds was only a maybe down the track and could still go that way yet.
The WA Queens TR winner shot a possible at 1000yds the best FO and FS did were 57.5 and 57.4. Maybe the leaders need to lead not be lead.

[AlanF]

AlanF
From my posts on the other thread i am standing up to keep 1000yds and to get 1200yds on the new Pinjar range in WA. 1500yds + would have been doable but the ball was dropped by the TR shooters (we dont shoot it ) before FC was aware, 1200yds was only a maybe down the track and could still go that way yet.
The WA Queens TR winner shot a possible at 1000yds the best FO and FS did were 57.5 and 57.4. Maybe the leaders need to lead not be lead.

I'm not advocating that we encroach on Match Rifle territory. Fair enough to have mounds for it though.

I think you're being a bit harsh on those score comparisons. Those are both 50.7s using TR scoring (TR winner got 50.4). And you also have to look at the size of the fields - usually a larger field is more competitive which results in higher scores. For example how many were there in F-Open vs TR? (I don't know because unlike ALL other Queens, WARA have not published all scores).

Alan

[Brad Y]

Yes Im still waiting on scores too!

Put it this way, there were 9 to start with and 7 finished I think. Compared to over 100 TR shooters from memory. Those who shot earlier at 1000yds right before and after the rain did ok. I shot then too but wound the wrong way after my first sighter and let that get to me. But afterwards I was happy with my 53.3 I think it was, knowing I beat every other FS and FO shooter at the queens on center count- a personal goal for me as my X counts havent been all that high all year. Also it beat last years 49.0

1000yds can be every bit as hard as 300. You cant control the conditions so you must do the best you can. Thats the whole idea of competing. Do the best you can. Theres always an element of luck if you get down in a hurricane or a gentle breeze. So turning around after a bad score and saying 1000yds should be dropped from the event is like taking your bat and ball and going home like a 6 year old.

I know Im putting a noose around my neck here and standing on a wobbly stool doing it but the following is my opinion only. I seriously doubt any f classers would push for 1000yds to be dropped- it seems to be a notion brought up by what I would stereotype as a typical disgruntled TR shooter who may be getting on in age and having trouble seeing that far, that doesnt like ET's, is against F class shooters and also pushes stupid things at meetings like changing petty words in rules to no effect, protesting against and attacking the work of people who volunteer time and effort as being part of a committee or part of a team that runs a shoot and is a general pain in the behind at the range. As a younger (ish) shooter I see these sorts of people pretty hot to trot in the whinging department in the sport and really damage what the sport has come to be and what it promises to be in the future. Note I was "disrespectful" in 2012 wearing the only clothes I had with me at the queens that day after it was in the 30's temp wise. Boardshorts and a long sleeve UV rated sun shirt are apparently in no way the correct attire on the podium. GET STUFFED I WILL DO IT AGAIN IF IT MEANS I STAY COOL DURING THE DAY AND NOT GET SUNBURNT!

As to 1000yds or 900m, bring it on. Lots of it. Cant get enough. Yes Bruce I know I will be crying at Lower Light with that attitude. Oh well

[johnk]

I heard recently that SARA may abandon the 900m from its Queens series.

Alan,

After this year's target carnage, I wouldn't be surprised if they ran the whole thing at 300. Seriously, when hitting the card becomes a raffle in conditions like this year's, I would expect that astute promoters would at least have a plan B for future events.

I know in 2004, the Aussie Match Rifle championship was contested in conditions that would have had the best 155s missing in action. My records show I shot an average of 24 MOA at 1000 metres using 210 Bergers running at mid 2600s & at other times in mirage so thick that they were using red 300m wand heads as spotters & something larger on a stick to signal values. Our red/green spotting squares just weren't visible.

.... at least there were bugger all flies when the breeze ran.

John

[Bindi2]

AlanF
My comments on Pinjar are from the point that this is a new range with little to no thought for the next 100yrs shooting therefore no thought to growing the sport of LR shooting. Have watched TR at Bisely shoot 1100 and 1200yds. BP at 1000yds is serious stuff and they were moving back 100 when i left.
The point to the score was that a TR shooter did score a possible for his class the others did not, not harsh fact.
Brad
Your comments on changes etc are spot on.
Just take a pair of jeans/slacks club shirt/jacket for the presentation.
Keep shooting you will out live the negatives.

[Brad Y]

No way mate, I travel all the way up there with the mrs and little one as well so they need the car. Im restricted to what I can take to the range as it is. The box full of shooting gear, rifle case etc is chockers let alone changes of clothes and such. Individual shooting to me is about being there and enjoying it. Of course if you are representing your state or country I can see uniforms/tracksuits and state blazers as important. But individual shooting not so much. Thats why I wear my long sleeve fishing shirts for sun protection. I suppose this year at least I had long pants on, but that was only because it was cool enough to warrant it. Got to try and get some good club shirts done up in UV long sleeve shirts. Then I would be happy to wear it all the time.

[AlanF]

... Seriously, when hitting the card becomes a raffle in conditions like this year's, I would expect that astute promoters would at least have a plan B for future events...

John,

There's been worse conditions (in terms of scoring difficulty) at Belmont in recent years. I agree that contingency plans are required in case of unsafe conditions or rain, but low scores? People know the wind blows hard at Lower Light. For many that's the attraction .

Alan

[Southcape]

One of the first things I requested for Pinjar was a range that ran out to 1200 yards. They need to look at all shooting disciplines, not just the ones currently shot.

The deal with local government, was that WARA is to build an international shooting complex with the monies. Well I can tell you, that as soon as that range is up and running and respectable, an invitation will be sent over to South Africa asking them to come an complete. They are our closest neighbours (this side) and only to willing to come and complete in Australia. They will be expecting to shoot 1000 yards.

There was carnage at Raton at 1000 yards. At one stage 14 targets in just one section, came up with misses on them. Not sure what was happening at the other end. It certainly shuffled the leader board.
I also bet all the AU F Class team members got down on that last range of 1000 yards, without even giving a thought to the distance.

Shooting is a mental sport and 1000 yards is only scary if you make it such in your mind. If you are getting beaten at the long ranges, then you need to shoot them more often, not less.

Let's not forget that our Australian Palma Team also need 1000 yards to practice.

[Bindi2]

When i leave sandy circle in the morning my ex golf buggy has all the gear for the day including wet/cold etc. I thought i knew a thing or two about packing and surviving 4 seasons in a day but my youngest daughter showed me how to do it out of a 20kg backpack for weeks at a time and still be top shelf smart.
Trouble with kids is they know everthing you do plus the extra bit they learnt.
Makes for interesting days on the range my girls take no prisoners or give the old man any leeway.
Brad the bad news for you is your turn is coming

[johnk]

Alan,

I was referring their frames that went to kindling during the match rifle shoot, but I should have explained in more detail.

Sorry.

John