Honest Comments About F/TR

M12LRPV · Post by **M12LRPV** » Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:21 pm

Why is there specifically a need for positive comments about F/TR??? :roll:

Personally I think there are far too many positive comments and not enough realistic and honest comments.

Like anyone that thinks a Remington factory rifle can compete with a custom in any class is quite frankly delusional.

Sure there may be one or two out there out of thousands that might be able to keep up with a custom but it's an insane amount of luck required to find one.

To use that as a selling point for F/TR is just going to suck in a whole lot of people who buy that spiel and spend their money only to find that they've been shafted. And who's doing the shafting??? The very people trying to promote the sport. How stupid is that?

Also the other insane comment comes from those selling the idea that a 223 with a 90gr projectile is going to be some wondrous 308 killer.

Try it now and see how you go before you sell it to the masses as the wonder solution. Shoot it in F-Open which is a class where the rifles are often beaten by F-Std 308's so it should be a fair and honest test.

You can call for an endless supply of positive comments about F/TR but I think what's really needed is a good dose of honesty.

The class has a place and if people are interested then it will grow but stop selling it as something it isn't because you will kill it faster that way than you will by not promoting it at all.

bruce moulds · Post by **bruce moulds** » Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:37 pm

m12
because that is the heading of the topic.
you have gone off topic.
keep safe,
bruce moulds.

TOM · Post by **TOM** » Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:53 pm

Actually Bruce, He has hit the nail right on the head. Im all for being positive about this but the way F/TR is being promoted as gods gift to hunting and off the shelf rifles is just not what it's gonna be, telling people they will be up to scratch, against a purpose built, custom target rifle with a hunter or out of the box gun is just BS.

Im actually glad someone else had the balls to come in here and say it.
I would prepare for some heavy fallout after that comment M12LRPV.

Quick · Post by **Quick** » Mon Jan 02, 2012 5:12 pm

Jeezus, They may not be as competitive as full on custom rifles but at least let people try!!! I mean god, you sound like you dont want any new shooters at all.

I have a Remington 700 action, trued attached to a Kreiger 1-12T. It sure aint as custom as Banards, etc but it holds it own against them and sometimes I score better then others using full on custom rigs. Skill is more important then a awesome rifle and F/TR will help teach that skill I think.

If it brings more shooters to the sport, dont we as the shooting community which is attacked by the anti's etc have a responsibility to try our best to get more people? I have mates who will quite glady come and shoot F/TR because they arnt restricted in bullet choice and esentially having to run a full on custom rifle to have a chance.

F/TR lets a bloke with a heavy barreled Varmint/practical/precision rig have a go and see how they perform. Its lets a guy with a 24" heavy barreled 308 choose the projie that works best for him at range and try his hand at it but still have a level playing field.

Just my opinions gents. Im 21 and new to the sport (relatively) but dont we want more people ad especially younger people to join us? Im the youngest guy at the range quite often by around 10 years or more.

Feel free to flame me but its what I think.

TOM · Post by **TOM** » Mon Jan 02, 2012 5:31 pm

Put all this into practice,Quick, in open competition, against the best of the best, and see how the results pan out. Im more than interested in hearing how you fair. With sincerity, great news for you if you can keep up.

If people want to come into F/TR to shoot their hunting rifle out to 1000 yards with no regard of the results, so be it, I have no problem with that, Bums on seats hey Raven? but dont make it sound as if these hunting outfits are gonna bring you home from world championships with a medal. After all, the big selling point for F/TR is World championships and international competition, on the big stage, custom outfits will rule, everytime.

M12LRPV · Post by **M12LRPV** » Mon Jan 02, 2012 5:33 pm

Quick. Way to paint me as something i'm not.

Look at my forum name. M12LRPV stands for Savage Model 12 LRPV which is a factory off the shelf rifle.

Were you to come out and shoot with me you would find most of the people around us would be shooting more factory rifles than customs.

In fact our club actively promotes itself to shooters who have factory rifles because that is the growth area of the sport.

I spoke up because I know what i'm talking about.

We have so many shooters in our club happily shooting factory rifles that we have no illusions about how they perform and how competitive they really are.

Unfortunately people would rather peddle lies to promote F/TR than simply be honest about it.

M12LRPV · Post by **M12LRPV** » Mon Jan 02, 2012 5:37 pm

bruce moulds wrote:m12
because that is the heading of the topic.
you have gone off topic.
keep safe,
bruce moulds.

The topic heading was not "lets tell porkies about F/TR in order to suck in the gullible" so by your measure everyone is off topic.

Southcape · Post by **Southcape** » Mon Jan 02, 2012 5:49 pm

I am trying to think back if I have ever promoted F/TR in this way. Doesn't seem my style.

I think you will find it is the F/TR shooters that are using hunting style rifles that are happy they have somewhere to shoot where they can use unrestricted ammo, as their rifles dislike the regulated stuff.

Once F/TR picks up, there will be some form of grading needed. Just as it has with F Standard. This will not happen overnight. First we need the numbers to warrant a second division. Let's start crawling before we walk. It is the best way to grow.

Someone somewhere (too many threads for me to track it down) asked what grading USA use. I think the following is correct.

Tyro (no scores on record), Marksman (360 recorded shots but below the 85% mark), Sharpshooter (85-89.99%), Expert (90-94.99%), Master (95-96.99%) and High Master (97% and above) categories.

Quick · Post by **Quick** » Mon Jan 02, 2012 5:57 pm

TOM,

Im sure not making it sound like one can take home a gold with a hunting rig but letting one use whatever projie they like will help bridge a performance gap and let them at least try and keep up.

This is not just about world champs and alike, its about getting new people in. Im going to build a dedicated rifle for F/TR and FS, but for the moment, my rifle lets me learn and still have a good time.

M12LRPV,

I apologise for painting you as something your not. Im glad that your club does what it does and that will surely be good for our sport.

I dont think that anyone is peddling lies, F/TR does allow one to use a not so speciallised rifle and still be competive. Its the skill of the shooter that matters more then the equipment used, if one can use a 24" heavy barrel with 175gr SMKs and get good scores, why should we stop them by saying, "nah sorry mate, you can only use 155gr SMKs or HBC so that means you have to get a rebarrel to get the same performance". Theres $700 - $1000 right there.

TOM · Post by **TOM** » Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:00 pm

The implication is there Linda. You have your team for the Match in America, without knowing, Ill say with 100% certainty each shooter has a custom/purpose built rifle, and for good reason.

Southcape · Post by **Southcape** » Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:07 pm

You are correct, we all will carry custom builds.

However... where did I start?

In F Standard.. shooting an Omark.

It is my own personal drive and goals that has seen me upgrade my rifles twice so that I could become competitive on the international circuit.

I didn't start with the top gear, I worked my way up to what I use today.

TOM · Post by **TOM** » Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:08 pm

Quick, what it comes down to is what the shooter wants to get out of the experience, If they are happy to bring their hunter and shoot, knowing full well there will be customised rifles built for the job then thats all good by me. So long as they are aware at the very beginning that this is what they are up against then I have no problem, and they cant come back at you and cry foul.

M12LRPV · Post by **M12LRPV** » Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:12 pm

I think people need to look at the Savage Palma.

It's spec's make it perfect for the scoping up as a F-Std rifle.

Seemingly for someone entering F-Std it would offer all of the benefits being touted in this thread for F/TR.

But does it measure up in the performance stakes and are people willing to use these to enter F-Std competitions in vast numbers?

Quick · Post by **Quick** » Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:12 pm

Tom,

Im sure that they will be told and see what the best guys use. If they want to shoot the comp, they will try if they are inclined or go and shoot something else if not.

I dont think we will see guys with hunting rigs come, more varminting and LR shooting rigs will come for a look see.

Thats it from me.

Cheers and have fun.

M12LRPV · Post by **M12LRPV** » Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:36 pm

Southcape wrote:I am trying to think back if I have ever promoted F/TR in this way. Doesn't seem my style.

I don't feel that you have personally promoted it as anything other than an internationally recognised discipline which is of great interest to you because of your strong desire to compete internationally and your ability to put together the equipment needed to compete.

All credit to you for your positive drive.

However there are far too many wonder claims being made about F/TR when the evidence already exists in F-Std to disprove them.

Having come into the sport via the factory rifle route and through my desire to compete in F-Std I have then gone on to customise my factory rifle to be competitive.

I know that be it F-Std of F/TR the process would be no different. The factory rifle would not have been competitive in either class.

My bog stock factory rifle shot ok with F-Std spec ammo. Others with the same or similar equipment have shot worse and some better. I cannot make a bold statement proclaiming that if I had been allowed to use a different projectile that I would have been competitive with it in factory configuration. I have learnt enough about shooting to know that such a claim is complete rubbish.