OzFclass

I've always had a conservative approach to reloading, with a firm view that if a sub-process is costly in time and/or dollars, you need to be sure its of worthwhile benefit, particularly if it has to be done for every one of the many thousands of rounds we load. There are some quick and inexpensive processes like primer pocket cleaning that I do because they may help. But annealing, if done with an induction annealer, which seems to have become a must have for those who have everything, is very expensive initially, plus it adds another chore. A few years ago I bought one of Peter Larsen's mechanical/propane torch annealers, mainly because he was donating the proceeds to the FCWC team expenses. In the last couple of days I've finally got around to having a proper look at it. It is very well made, with plenty of adjustment, and I'd be surprised if can't do the job as well as anything out there.

I have many Kg of used brass, and plenty of propane bottles, so have decided to do some test runs to try to perfect the technique, but also to try to measure the improvement to the properties of the brass. The findings will help to decide whether to include annealing in the case preparation process. Everyone says that brass gets work hardened and that annealing returns it to new condition. What I would like to know is how exactly does work-hardened brass behave differently from new? For example, does it spring back more or less from the chamber when fired, and does it spring back more or less from neck sizing? And does annealing increase neck elasticity and even out neck tension? My initial plan is to take a uniform batch of many-fired brass, anneal half of them, size all of them, and compare uniformity and strength of seating force between annealed and not. Has anyone been there and done that?

I‘m sure I’m one of MANY of us who have “been there done that” re annealing and its effects.

Where to start ? Just one story about shooter “x” who actually told me he reckons his groups have halved since he bought his AMP annealer. So of course he’s gonna say annealing is a must. I’ve just put a tricky composite 750 gram fixed weight/knob on my FO guns muzzle and the groups have halved … u get the idea.

And btw I totally believe in annealing, often ! I also believe the ‘science’ is still building on this topic. In the meantime my head feels better just doing it, and that matters. I have an induction annealer built by a guy over here. It’s not an AMP. Seems there are a few home built ones around. Regards Rob Kerridge.

Alan, I haven't been there and done that BUT
my experience with neck annealing is that it does reduce spring back from a many time fired case. Proof of this was at Bisley there are numerous rules regarding chambers, throating etc and in the MR comp there is a gauge that must fit into the neck of a fired case (I think the gauge measures .3085). I leave a Match Rifle and all my brass, and components over there. The brass is many times fired and I started to notice that I could not push a new projectile into the neck of fire cases. The cases I leave over there are Winchester cases with very thin walls and necks, and if you can't get a new bullet into the neck of the case, I believe I was risking disqualification.
I borrowed an AMP annealer from a Welsh friend and annealed my batch of cases, and lo and behold my batch of cases all then easily allowed a new bullet into the neck after the next firing.
I do believe you can feel the difference in the seating pressure required to seat bullets into the cases following annealing compared to a many times fired un-annealed case.
Philip

Alan, I seat with an arbor press and Wilson die, the press has a force gauge on it. With un-annealed brass I get a lot of variation in seating force, these are ones that in a normal press you always wonder about. When I anneal the difference in seating force is minimal, I still fall short in that it does not teach them to read wind.

Richard

Hmmm I found the opposite of banip when shooting the 6.5x284. That's interesting.
I'd never heard of annealing so just shot, cleaned, resized, reloaded, repeat.
It wasn't long before, even as a novice reloader, I found neck tension substantially reduced.
From here i looked into anneling, built my own gas annealer and moved on to annealing after every firing.
What I found was that case hardening took the 'stretch' out of the brass. A hard neck would actually size smaller than an annealed neck because there was no bounce back from the bush. But also tension was lost when seating because in hardened brass the neck had no elasticity, it just opened up to accept accepti the projectile.

We all talk about neck "tension" and how we achieve it through neck size but in fact it is entirely dependent on the state of the brass in the neck.

Annealing is now just part of my process.
Neck size, clean pocket, clean brass, dry, anneal, reload.
Annealing also ensures the brass is dry.

Tim L wrote:Hmmm I found the opposite of banip when shooting the 6.5x284...

Maybe you're talking about different things? Phil is saying that annealed necks didn't spring back after firing as much as work-hardened. There is a test which requires you to be able to insert a projectile by hand into a fired case (before neck sizing). If Phil is right then that's a plus in terms of getting a gas seal around the neck/shoulder area.

Answer to the question is Yes ! I can feel when they need doing . After annealing the projectiles just seat smoother and they seem more accurate.
I just use a map torch and a drill in a dark room . Love an amp but I get good results with my old school budget job . I did use an amp on the last time we toured NZ as they were a sponsor. Was really good ! Just the price is too much for me and it takes up too much space on my usually very messy loading bench ! Which is clean at the moment lol!

RMc wrote:Alan, I seat with an arbor press and Wilson die, the press has a force gauge on it. With un-annealed brass I get a lot of variation in seating force, these are ones that in a normal press you always wonder about. When I anneal the difference in seating force is minimal, I still fall short in that it does not teach them to read wind.

Richard

Worth the price of admission right there

Yes

Yes I found it worth doing when I had one of peters annealers. However the first firing after annealing I would only do at club shoots. I found tension settled better after the first firing. Verified over chronograph.

Hi Alan, annealing for me is just about consistency in full length resizing, so I anneal every 4-5 reloads with an AMP.
Weather it improver accuracy is something I find too hard to measure, when my barrels are in there prime they shoot well before and after annealing.

annealing is considered a dark art by many,
one thing to remember about cartridge cases is that we do not anneal, but partially anneal.
to do this we need to bring the necks to 700 degrees.
to know that you achieve that is easily measured with tempilaq.
heating the tempilaq directly with flame measures the flame temp, so you put the tempilaq on the case body.
heat the body just below the shoulder to 750, and the neck will go to 700.this is where a machine if far better than a socket in an electric drill.
you feed the cases in and once a time/heat balance is achieved, just keep going.
which raises the next point.
consistency of partial anneal is critical for consistency of neck spring, and a good machine will give consistency.
the new you beaut multi million dollar induction machines would be lovely, but flame machines can do an equal job in the real world for a lot less outlay.
with the revolving drum types, thick tempilaq can stop the cases revolving.
bruce.

Has anyone done ES tests before and after.

neil y wrote:Has anyone done ES tests before and after.

Unfortunately, I just don’t have the time to do such test . However for me , the tgt tells the story .

neil y wrote:Has anyone done ES tests before and after.

I have read of someone doing exactly that, however can’t remember where, the conclusion was it can make it worse unless done consistently, then improving it if done well, I believe advantages come from consistent seating/neck tension