New FTR Build/Shooter

[AlexE]

Hi Fellas,

I've been a club level open shooter for the last 5 or so years. Have shot a number of 308s in that time and quite a few rifles from a Joypod.

I'm going to join the ftr darkside and would love some advice from the gurus.

I've got a 6 month old and a wife taking a year off work, so I'm not a cashed up as I'd like to be. My current action options are both sleeved remingtons that have had the works done to them. One is a magnum bolt face, the other 308, both smithed by David Kerr

Should I expect to be able to run the high nodes in such an action? The sleeve on one is almost 2 inches round, so I would expect so. I'm thinking 200 hybrids at 2700+. I would like to use 210 lrbt Bergers and have been told by a couple of very successful Aussie shooters that getting them to 2740fps is easy, but the thought of this does frighten me a little, as it's only 100 fps slower than my 300wsm is pushing the

As I see it, I have three options to get me running in a half competitive fashion

1. I have a 308 open gun with a 10 twist 1.25" Bartlien. It weighs 10kg, and if my sums are right, I should be able to put it in a bolly carbon fibre stock with a Joypod and just make weight.

2. For the same money I could put a brand new barrel of any twist and a lighter profile and fit a low profile benchrest stock similar to Mr Litz in the states and run an Auspod. Is there any reason not to go in this direction?

3. Put a PTG bolt in my magnum action and run a GRS x-eater stock (already have one inletted for the magnum action), a HV barrel and a joypod

I guess these three options come down to stock choice. Is a 1.25 barrel in a featherweight stock a good idea?
Are low profile BR style stocks as good as they look?
Would a GRS stock result in too tight a hold to be a decent FTR gun?


My apologies for the long winded post - I hope some of it makes sense! Selling some rifles and kitting out with a dedicated Barnard or similar is definitely a possibility, but I might see how keen I get after exploring one of the two options above.

Thanks for your time,

Alex

[Redhawk]

Hi Alex

I think any of the rifle combinations for rifle set up will work. As long as you make weight and it feels comfortable. Then learn how to manage the recoil and rifle jump. I have shot from alu stock free recoil to hanging on to heavy wooden stocks..... once you have learned it, stick with it.

I would start with running 200’s at a low node, or go for 185 Jugs..... find the node that shoots in your rifle...... at 1,000 yds, the accuracy of the rifle and your ability to read and adapt to the conditions will determine success..... not the speed of the bullet.

My 5c worth.

Regards
Frans

[Brad Y]

200’s are a whole new beast off a bipod. Suggest getting 155 or 185’s working first, learn to drive the rifle properly and be consistent, then try the heavies.

I tried the whole benchrest style stock setup, very critical of technique and gun handling. It was a nightmare really. Go for a long stock that tracks under recoil rather than jumps and wheels up.

[Barossa_222]

Can't really answer a lot of the questions you've asked, it is all subject to how you get on with whatever you build. You might drop your open rig into a Bolly and get on well with it, it might be a pig. Have a look at what the guys who are at the pointy end of FTR are using and that should tell you most of what you need to know. It all depends on how competitive you want to be. I bought an open rifle when I started and converted it to an FTR gun and struggled with it for 2 years before getting the hang of it. Was very sensitive to hold and position, once I figured out what I was doing, it really shot quite well. Took me a lot of hours of training and a lot of help from Mick Punturiero. You need to be super critical about your technique, less time in the reloading room and more trigger time.
As for running 210LRBTs at 2740, not saying that it can't be done, but I wouldn't advise chasing speed. The gun will shoot where it wants to shoot.

[AlexE]

Thank you for the replies, gentlemen.

My 308 open gun is currently set up for juggernauts, so I might throw it in a Bolly stock and see how it goes. I will ultimately head towards 200.20x as they will work in the same chamber, but juggernauts are too bloody easy to get working.

When you discuss recoil in the context of FTR are you talking just the quantity of recoil, or how to learn to manage it to get consistent tracking and vertical? I have a light fly 300WSM (7.7kg) which I can tolerate shooting F Class and it will thump me more than any FTR rifle will, but I have been shooting that from a pedestal rest.

What are your thoughts on bipods? Is a Joypod a must to shooting competitively and quickly?I like the idea of the Auspod for its rigidity and footprint, but I wonder how much mucking about there is between shots when shooting with a flat buttstock. I can;t imagine it being easy to "gun and run" without a joystick bipod

Thanks again for your help with the dark side

Alex

[Quick]

I run option one. Works for me.

I shot Brad Y rifle before he changed to his current stock after me hounding him to change. It was horrible.

Ill tell you what I told him, if you have to work hard to drive the rifle, change something so its easy to drive.

In my opinion, a joypod is essential for F/TR.

[UL1700]

What are your thoughts on bipods? Is a Joypod a must to shooting competitively and quickly?I like the idea of the Auspod for its rigidity and footprint, but I wonder how much mucking about there is between shots when shooting with a flat buttstock. I can;t imagine it being easy to "gun and run" without a joystick bipod
Alex

Personally I have ditched the Joypod in preference for the Auspod. On my rifle, to get the Joypod to track well enough so that only adjustment of the joystick is needed to get you back on target was extremely difficult (and impossible for more than a couple of shots as I would out of windage) . They are also prone to putting vertical on target as they tend to flex forward and backward. I also found keeping my hand off the joystick whilst firing near impossible which is essential as unlike a coaxial rest, the joystick moves with recoil. In comparison I have found the Auspod to be much easier to get tracking well with only minor windage adjustments being called for between shots. Vertical once set seems to remain set as long a you keep a constant body position. For what it's worth I have also owned a Dolphin which I found to be a nightmare to control torque and the damn thing twisted every shot and have borrowed a Davis which is amazing to shoot off but way over weight for me to be able to use. If you are planning on using machine gun techniques you may be in for a shock with Ftr!

[Barossa_222]

What are your thoughts on bipods? Is a Joypod a must to shooting competitively and quickly?I like the idea of the Auspod for its rigidity and footprint, but I wonder how much mucking about there is between shots when shooting with a flat buttstock. I can;t imagine it being easy to "gun and run" without a joystick bipod
Alex

Personally I have ditched the Joypod in preference for the Auspod. On my rifle, to get the Joypod to track well enough so that only adjustment of the joystick is needed to get you back on target was extremely difficult (and impossible for more than a couple of shots as I would out of windage) . They are also prone to putting vertical on target as they tend to flex forward and backward. I also found keeping my hand off the joystick whilst firing near impossible which is essential as unlike a coaxial rest, the joystick moves with recoil. In comparison I have found the Auspod to be much easier to get tracking well with only minor windage adjustments being called for between shots. Vertical once set seems to remain set as long a you keep a constant body position. For what it's worth I have also owned a Dolphin which I found to be a nightmare to control torque and the damn thing twisted every shot and have borrowed a Davis which is amazing to shoot off but way over weight for me to be able to use. If you are planning on using machine gun techniques you may be in for a shock with Ftr!

I think you'll find that nothing will track well if you haven't got your set up right. Duplin, Auspod, Joypod, Davies, they all require technique and set up/balance to use properly. I get no more vertical with a joypod then I would with anything else. I have an Auspod also, but have not used it enough to comment on it. Is made very well and looks very stable.

[Quick]

A properly set up rifle will allow you to have minimal changes between shots with joypod. You just need to set the rifle and mound up correctly. I can get my F/TR rifle to track as well as an FO rifle and have similar amount of vertical at long range. Its all in the setup of the rifle on the mound and correct choice of equipment.

[AlexE]

Hi Fellas,

Thanks for all the advice. I ended up going down another path and selling some stuff to build a new rifle with a Borden Alpine action and a 32" Brux 1:10 Heavy Varmint. I also picked up an Auspod used on this site. I've got two stocks to try that the Borden will drop into. One is a GRS x-eater and the other a McMillan benchrest stock, similar to Mr Litz' setup. I'll make weight with either.

Stay tuned for a bunch more annoying questions once I've got it all together and learning to shoot.

One more question - how much freebore should I go with? 170ish so I can run Juggernauts and 200.20x from the one chamber or a bit more for 200 hybrids? I have a modest stock of both Jugs and 200H, but no 200.20x. Is there a freebore that will work with both jugs and 200H?

Cheerio,
Alex

[Barossa_222]

You don't need much freebore to run both of those pills. 170 too much for 200.20xs. My reamer has 50 thou and will run jugs and 200.20x pills as is, but I throat out to 120 for 200.20x and 180 for 200 hybrids. I would advise to throat your rifle for the pills you want to run.

[wsftr]

I run .165 for 185 Hybrids and 200.20s. I'm more than happy with where the bullet ends up in the neck - I shoot jump. There is a balance with getting the throating right so you can maximise case capacity for big pills and have something in the neck to hold it in place.
I Know of guys that have reamers for the new gen very high BC bullets that had FB of .100 or less. When the new bullets didn't work out they went to the 200.20 using that FB. They stated that accuracy was good all though in their opinion positioning of the bullet in the case was sub optimal.

[Bigfoot]

' They stated that accuracy was good all though in their opinion positioning of the bullet in the case was sub optimal"

What is optimal?

[wsftr]

generally speaking "optimal" is getting the position such that there is enough distance from the bearing surface to the neck shoulder junction which still allows jump and in turn there is also enough neck to hold the bullet as the throat wears and the bullet is seated out. This keeps the bearing surface of the bullet away from an area in the case that can cause (but not always) precision issues and ensures that as much case volume as possible is available for powder.
Short neck designs make this balancing act trickier.
generally speaking the reamer designers have done the work on figuring this balancing act out and you can go with a known good reamer specification.
People do report at times significantly different specs that work - I think this is tied up with whether they jump or jam and how they measure jump or jam and where they are happy with the bullet sitting in the case.

[Tim L]

I'm following a couple of threads relating to this "neck engagement". I've never considered it as a factor worth considering.
Neck tension makes a difference, but neck engagement?,,,, I'm not convinced it makes any difference (or at least not a difference that isn't accomodated by something else).
I run a 300 thou freebore chamber so I can seat out the 200+ pills to give me case capacity. They would have about 5mm in the case. The same chamber shoots 155.5s that are bearly in the case at all and make a leap of faith to find the lands.
I also have a chamber with 50 thou freebore where 155s and 185s are engaged well past the neck shoulder junction jumping 5 and 20 thou respectively.