OzFclass

Keith you are a man of strong opinions and worldly experience, that has rightly gained considerable and well earned respect in the Australian F Class community.
If it was inevitable (theoretically), that for the NRAA ranges to survive in modern times, they NEEDED (NOT necessarily wanted) to allow another growing discipline onto the range...........
How would you see a successful meshing of long range events (range usage), or is it just completely unforeseeable in your mind that the discussion is a waste of time.
Cheers
Pete

KHGS wrote:..........Please do NOT tell me I have to accept a muzzle braked rifle shooting in the lane next to me without baffleing!!!! Not going to happen!!!! Keith H.

Keith, having shot prone alongside braked magnums, including .338LMs, I understand your concerns. However, as you know, very few PRS shooters use magnums. Most use 6mm or 6.5mm chamberings, hardly heavy artillery. In fact, my braked 260 kicks up less dust and grass than when it is un-braked. As a courtesy to other shooters, I always ask those in adjacent lanes if they mind having me use a brake. The answer has always been "no worries". The usual comment after I shoot is that they are surprised how mild it was.

Question,
Why would you need to brake a 6mm or 6.5 mm do they recoil to that extent? or is it to do with getting back on target quickly? excuse my ignorance.

bully_eye wrote:Keith I don’t see the two being shot side by side ever. That doesn’t mean that clubs can’t...possibly...offer another discipline. We organise our shoots under NRAA Service Rifle Rules so there is precedent. I would never expect the two to happen side by side and from my experience they aren’t really compatible to be shot side by side.

Michael

Could you please explain the service rifle rules if it’s not too much to ask ? Just so we all understand it . It’s about chapter 16 and there is a new ruling about muzzle brakes as well ????

Also agree that they can’t be shot side by side either . But with a bit of mitigation I’m sure there is a compromise.

Barry Davies wrote:Question,
Why would you need to brake a 6mm or 6.5 mm do they recoil to that extent? or is it to do with getting back on target quickly? excuse my ignorance.

They brake them so they can get back on target quickly and spot there shots easier..

Barry Davies wrote:Question,
Why would you need to brake a 6mm or 6.5 mm do they recoil to that extent? or is it to do with getting back on target quickly? excuse my ignorance.

Barry, in this discipline there are no wind flags and no spotters so watching your trace and/or bullet impact is critical for follow-up shots.

Graham, I believe chapter 16 relates to the use of "Service Rifles" and the fact that they can be used in competition in an "as issued state".
The Accuracy International, TRG etc all come factory fitted with muzzle brakes, hence the view and relevance, that muzzle brakes be allowed in this style of competition.
Hopefully I am somewhat in the ballpark with the above information.

Barry the main idea behind the use of the muzzle brake is to maintain target view during recoil, purely to assist you in adjusting your follow-up shot, from the all to inevitable misses... Especially if I am the one shooting! Targets are not as large as F Class (overall), nor scored between all shoots.
Regards
Pete

Oops, have to type fast around here at times

I thought a close up video of my 260 brake in action might allay some fears. Note the small grass and dirt disturbance and how the handheld camera and the cameraman in the blast zone fail to react to the blast. https://youtu.be/gPElWg_Y6_Y

i think the best thing here is to listen to the clubs and their members that 'are' already accommodating this or similar disciplines and lean on their experiences for the pros and cons they encounter.

i shoot F-class but have also shot PRS and really like them both and appreciate the skills required for each type.
there are times when i may not feel like shooting my f class rig, but would still like to shoot some long range stuff with other rifles.
if PRS (or some tailored version of it) was done in a manner that fitted in with the regular crowds without upsetting anything, i can't see why it can't be done.

are there many members here among us that would like to participate in 'some sort' of PRS / Practical Rifle on their home range from time to time?
i for one would like to.

Bigtravoz wrote:As someone who has seen muzzle brakes in action I can see what the issue is with them, I am far from a dinosaur and am all for trying to get people involved in the sport. The problem with a muzzle brake is how they create blowback in a lateral fashion, on a dry mound this is quite an issue as the dust that is kicked up goes sideways across the mound. Not just dust either in the case of large caliber rifles. I am sure that if you turned up to a range and joe blogs with his $2000 dollar factory rifle started throwing sand dirt and rocks at you and your $10000+ custom action rifle and scope you too wouldn’t be very happy about it. All for the addition of new classes and maybe there could be a separate class shot before or after the main f class shooters have done their thing.

So many ways you could solve/cater for these issues, don't put down new members without trying....

Send-it wrote:
are there many members here among us that would like to participate in 'some sort' of PRS / Practical Rifle on their home range from time to time?
i for one would like to.

I would like to be able to do PRS or 600yd BR at my home club, but they have made it clear that brakes are not welcome, whether it is the Saturday morning service rifle comp or the Wednesday morning hunting club shoot, so I don't mention it. When I want to use my PRS gun or 600/1000yd LG I will just go to the other range nearby which welcomes the local hunters and service rifle shooters.

KHGS wrote:I have read all the posts & I personally have no issues with PRS, my question is a simple one, why do we have to evolve???? Perhaps PRS needs to "evolve"????
Please do NOT tell me I have to accept a muzzle braked rifle shooting in the lane next to me without baffleing!!!! Not going to happen!!!!
Keith H.

Keith, I am sure once upon a time (like just this week) there were many TR shooters who felt the same about F-Class being shot alongside them, at a different time, not in TR comps, at the other end of the range, its not needed..... so on and so on..

I wonder where TR would be now without F-Class, I'd imagine things would be fairly bleak, any given club day at my range and Scopies vastly outnumber TR shooters, and numbers at comps are starting to sway the other way with scopes regularly accounting for half the field...

Member numbers for the NRAA are in decline, there is bugger all new growth.

Ideas are stagnant from within the NRAA, our most prized shooter left the NRAA board due to this.

I along with several F shooter I know, am building a PRS setup, how many PRS shooters (and there is more than you think) are building F-Class, or for that matter TR rigs.

In my, very well educated opinion, the writing is on the wall already for the NRAA, unless they pull a rabbit out of the hat within the next few years we are screwed.

Where as, the SSAA, which is opening their arms and adding yet another discipline to their quiver is growing monthly, they are acquiring land for longer ranges and strongly support their competitions, and, through member feedback are starting to become more active politically in an effort to thwart the degradation of our sport.

Did you read the alarmist article about the SSAA and the fact they have amassed a multimillion dollar (freehold) land portfolio, from GCA...

The NRAA is letting opportunity after opportunity slip by, no growth, what next in your opinion Keith?

Oh, and another amongst the "death by 1000 cuts" onslaught, shooting will not be at the 2022 Com Games, and, its being held in probably the strongest TR/Shotgun country in the world, that's evolution though right

jasmay wrote:Oh, and another amongst the "death by 1000 cuts" onslaught, shooting will not be at the 2022 Com Games, and, its being held in probably the strongest TR/Shotgun country in the world, that's evolution though right

You seem to have missed my opening statement, I am not against PRS, in fact I support it & have built several rifles for that form of shooting. Regarding muzzle brakes, I have probably fitted more of these than most of the readers of this forum have seen. Muzzle brakes are not all "equal" in how much disturbance they create. There is much to consider here, the design of the brake & the caliber used with the brake, so it is not a simple issue! Hence my rather "educated" caution to the use of brakes where anyone considers allowing braked rifles to be used on all ranges & mixed with other disciplines! My personal view is that those wanting to shoot their PRS rifle in F-Class mode should remove the brake to do so. My 2 cents if anyone is interested.
Keith H.

KHGS wrote:........ Muzzle brakes are not all "equal" in how much disturbance they create. There is much to consider here, the design of the brake & the caliber used with the brake.........

You nailed it right there, Keith.
Rather than a blanket ban on all brakes, would it not be logical and fairer to simply ban the brakes that cause the problems? eg Radial brakes kick up more debris than lateral brakes. Multiple baffles diffuse the blast better than one or two baffles. etc etc Since this thread is about PRS, banning brakes on rifles with magnum/high energy cartridges would hurt no one (FC/TR) whilst allowing participation of the PRS shooters. After all, we have rules about just about everything else, front rests, rear rests, rifle weights, triggers, energy limits, bullets (FS,TR), time limits.........