Page 3 of 3

Re: Draft NRAA Standard Shooting Rules – June 2025 Update

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2025 9:20 am
by jasmay
@ Petefox

I find it a bit hard to believe not allowing spikes all of a sudden means you’re not in control of your rifle and it’s not safe.

Many shooters already don’t use spikes, what about Sporter, lighter guns, more recoil only allowed to use a 1kg squeeze bag.

If this is a genuine safety concern and not just a whinge, shouldn’t spikes become mandatory to ensure “safety”?

I’m all for debating and reviewing these rules, but let’s keep it real.

Re: Draft NRAA Standard Shooting Rules – June 2025 Update

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2025 12:11 pm
by Potshot2023
Another interesting one: 3.2.6.3 precludes Officials from competing at National or State competitions. That means that at a S&T Kings, the required Match Committee, which is usually made up of two or three Councillors or Board Members would be barred from taking part in their Kings. This is a bit of overkill, and probably an unintended outcome, and surely not necessary.

Re: Draft NRAA Standard Shooting Rules – June 2025 Update

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2025 2:37 pm
by PeteFox
BATattack wrote: Mon Jul 07, 2025 8:19 pm
On rough mounds, putting a sandbag under the rear plate is as good or better than spikes. It works and complies with ICFRA rules.
Well no, that may be your opinion, but it is not supported by the facts.
Donuts/sandbags are not legal under ICFRA rules

ICFRA Rule F2.9 spells it out. The only thing allowed under your rear bag is a flat plate and your mat/carpet.

ICFRA Rule F1.9 disallows the use of anything providing an "advantage"

and for the ICFRA purists out there, the SSR's disallow it.

Contrary to ICFRA Rule F1.10 which encourages innovation, the Draft SSR 3.4.1 disallows the use of anything providing an "advantage" AND disallows the exploitation of equipment/method /behaviour where the rules are silent.

Therefore:
both the ICFRA rules and the SSR's are silent on the use of donuts under rear bags. Therefore Draft SSR 3.4.1 comes into play and donuts aer prohibited in FTR and FO.

Rules referenced are quoted below for clarity in the order listed above.


ICFRA F2.9.
The use of ‘tables’ i.e. a single flat solid surface laid on the firing point and extending under
both front rest and rear bag is prohibited. Carpet or similarly flexible matting may be placed
under the front rest and rear bag. Separate rigid flat boards and/or plates not exceeding the
dimensions of the individual rests by two inches on any given side may also be placed under
the front rest and rear bag. In the case of a bipod the board or plate may be as wide as
necessary to accommodate the bipod at its widest point plus 2 inches each side, but not be
more than 12" front to rear. It is not permitted to provide tracks for the guidance of bipod
feet nor allow the feet to create them. No levelling screws or protrusions are allowed on these boards or plates.
They must be flat on the top and bottom: a hole to facilitate carrying
the plate is permissible but it may not be used, whether alone or conjunction with anything
else, so as to prevent movement of the plate in the firing point. Nothing in this rule prevents
the provision of a raised table at which a disabled competitor may sit pursuant to F2.22 or F6.1.


ICFRA 1.9
No competitor may use equipment or shooting methods that provide them with an unfair
advantage or put any other competitor at an unfair disadvantage.

ICFRA 1.10
The spirit of the F-Class Rules is to encourage innovation, and Match Referees and
Committees will bear this philosophy in mind in ruling on issues not covered by these rules.

Draft SSR 3.4.1
No competitor may use equipment, shooting methods or behaviour that provide him with an unfair
advantage or put any other competitor at an unfair disadvantage. Where the rules are silent on particular issue then competitors will not be permitted to exploit the opportunity/issue. The MD is empowered to act accordingly in accordance with the provisions of these SSR. See Rule 1.5.4

Re: Draft NRAA Standard Shooting Rules – June 2025 Update

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2025 2:49 pm
by PeteFox
jasmay wrote: Tue Jul 08, 2025 9:20 am @ Petefox

I find it a bit hard to believe not allowing spikes all of a sudden means you’re not in control of your rifle and it’s not safe.

Many shooters already don’t use spikes, what about Sporter, lighter guns, more recoil only allowed to use a 1kg squeeze bag.

If this is a genuine safety concern and not just a whinge, shouldn’t spikes become mandatory to ensure “safety”?

I’m all for debating and reviewing these rules, but let’s keep it real.
Jason
misquoting or selectively manipulating my words for the sake of a cheap debating point is disingenuous.

I did not say " not allowing spikes all of a sudden means you’re not in control of your rifle"

I actually said " I can see a situation where for example the disallowing of spikes on rear bags is deemed a safety issue if conditions don't allow for a stable platform".

I stand by the observation.

I suggest you take your own advice " I’m all for debating and reviewing these rules, but let’s keep it real."

Pete

Re: Draft NRAA Standard Shooting Rules – June 2025 Update

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2025 4:37 pm
by jasmay
@ Pete fox, you did itend for your comments to mean that not allowing spikes could be a safety issue though, correct?

Re: Draft NRAA Standard Shooting Rules – June 2025 Update

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2025 5:31 pm
by BATattack
Funny. We used plates with sandbags under them at the world's in Canada shooting under ICFRA rules. Was pretty much the standard for the open team and that worked out fairly well.

What I have seen recently is FTR shooters with large front plates essentially using 2 sand filled socks to sit the plate on to get the desired angle and prevent rocking. Interesting.
PeteFox wrote: Tue Jul 08, 2025 2:37 pm
BATattack wrote: Mon Jul 07, 2025 8:19 pm
On rough mounds, putting a sandbag under the rear plate is as good or better than spikes. It works and complies with ICFRA rules.
Well no, that may be your opinion, but it is not supported by the facts.
Donuts/sandbags are not legal under ICFRA rules

ICFRA Rule F2.9 spells it out. The only thing allowed under your rear bag is a flat plate and your mat/carpet.

ICFRA Rule F1.9 disallows the use of anything providing an "advantage"

and for the ICFRA purists out there, the SSR's disallow it.

Contrary to ICFRA Rule F1.10 which encourages innovation, the Draft SSR 3.4.1 disallows the use of anything providing an "advantage" AND disallows the exploitation of equipment/method /behaviour where the rules are silent.

Therefore:
both the ICFRA rules and the SSR's are silent on the use of donuts under rear bags. Therefore Draft SSR 3.4.1 comes into play and donuts aer prohibited in FTR and FO.

Rules referenced are quoted below for clarity in the order listed above.


ICFRA F2.9.
The use of ‘tables’ i.e. a single flat solid surface laid on the firing point and extending under
both front rest and rear bag is prohibited. Carpet or similarly flexible matting may be placed
under the front rest and rear bag. Separate rigid flat boards and/or plates not exceeding the
dimensions of the individual rests by two inches on any given side may also be placed under
the front rest and rear bag. In the case of a bipod the board or plate may be as wide as
necessary to accommodate the bipod at its widest point plus 2 inches each side, but not be
more than 12" front to rear. It is not permitted to provide tracks for the guidance of bipod
feet nor allow the feet to create them. No levelling screws or protrusions are allowed on these boards or plates.
They must be flat on the top and bottom: a hole to facilitate carrying
the plate is permissible but it may not be used, whether alone or conjunction with anything
else, so as to prevent movement of the plate in the firing point. Nothing in this rule prevents
the provision of a raised table at which a disabled competitor may sit pursuant to F2.22 or F6.1.


ICFRA 1.9
No competitor may use equipment or shooting methods that provide them with an unfair
advantage or put any other competitor at an unfair disadvantage.

ICFRA 1.10
The spirit of the F-Class Rules is to encourage innovation, and Match Referees and
Committees will bear this philosophy in mind in ruling on issues not covered by these rules.

Draft SSR 3.4.1
No competitor may use equipment, shooting methods or behaviour that provide him with an unfair
advantage or put any other competitor at an unfair disadvantage. Where the rules are silent on particular issue then competitors will not be permitted to exploit the opportunity/issue. The MD is empowered to act accordingly in accordance with the provisions of these SSR. See Rule 1.5.4

Re: Draft NRAA Standard Shooting Rules – June 2025 Update

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2025 8:41 pm
by macguru
ref SHO (SCI) = sporter improved.....13.9.4 says" Additional padding (that is not permanently affixed to the
groundsheet or shooting mat) may not be placed under the elbows."
comment : I dont think putting a towel etc under your elbow to protect your joint should be disallowed. It does little to affect accuracy.Does this rule spill over from fullbore ??

Re: Draft NRAA Standard Shooting Rules – June 2025 Update

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2025 10:16 pm
by Tim L
PeteFox wrote: Tue Jul 08, 2025 7:50 am So what is the difference between an advantage and an unfair advantage?
The rules don't define it. So it's subjective, not objective, which amounts to an opinion.
It's the old equality argument Pete (not the new one).
Does everyone have an equal opportunity to do what is being done.
If the answer is yes, it's fair.
Are joystick bipods available for all to use, should they choose to?
Availability at any given time aside, the answer is yes. So it's fair, regardless of whether it's an advantage or not.

Re: Draft NRAA Standard Shooting Rules – June 2025 Update

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2025 7:51 am
by macguru
Joystick bipods are for FTR. FTR is an international discipline. If they are used internationally then they should be allowed here. I have not used them as I dont shoot FTR, but I imagine there is a slight advantage, between a Sporter bipod and an F class rest. (to state the obvious)

Re: Draft NRAA Standard Shooting Rules – June 2025 Update

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2025 8:45 am
by PeteFox
Potshot2023 wrote: Tue Jul 08, 2025 12:11 pm Another interesting one: 3.2.6.3 precludes Officials from competing at National or State competitions. That means that at a S&T Kings, the required Match Committee, which is usually made up of two or three Councillors or Board Members would be barred from taking part in their Kings. This is a bit of overkill, and probably an unintended outcome, and surely not necessary.
This rule will kill off the small Kings Prize meetings. It it unwelcome interference in the running of events where the NRAAs contribution is exactly zero.

Re: Draft NRAA Standard Shooting Rules – June 2025 Update

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2025 2:03 pm
by bobped
Getting back to the Spikes on Rear Plates issue.

I'll repeat the reasoning behind allowing them in the original Australian Rules.
Without spikes, one shooter on the mound may have a nice flat spot to put his rear rest and therefore will have a nice stable rear bag setup.

Another shooter, in a different place on the same mound may have an uneven spot, perhaps with lumps or even a rock where the rear plate or bag is placed. This may cause an unstable setup for that shooter.

This happens quite often on Australian Ranges, especially if they are in a cow paddock.
Obviously the shooter with the stable setup has an advantage. Spikes negate that problem.
That's why we included spikes in the original rules. As simple as that.

Without spikes you can overcome the problem with various things such as doughnut bags and sandbags. I've tried that and my sandbag weighs in at 5 KG. Went back to spikes as it was much simpler and achieved the same result.
However, you can't use spikes on the mounds at Bendigo, because they are covered with mats. Therefore I keep the sandbag handy (and a doughnut bag as well)
Another option is to use what one of our club members uses - a heavy steel plate to put his rear bag on. It weighs 6 KG. Good fun carting it around. Multiplies the stupidity and inconvenience as well.

Re: Draft NRAA Standard Shooting Rules – June 2025 Update

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2025 4:55 pm
by Potshot2023
Bobped, have you submitted your objections/concerns/comments to the appropriate body?

Re: Draft NRAA Standard Shooting Rules – June 2025 Update

Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2025 9:26 am
by PeteFox
From the NRAA

" Updated 10 July 2025 – A revised version of the SSRs has been uploaded to correct a formatting omission in the Target Dimensions annex. No other changes made"

https://nraa.com.au/nraa-news/draft-sta ... 25-update/

Pete