Well I'm hoping to join you F TR shooters at Queens, so I'm finding this an interesting conversation. I hadn't considered 223, mainly because it means a whole new rifle.
I've managed to get a nice load sorted with 155 Dyers and a pretty reasonable one with a 168gn VLD. Both are capable of keeping me in the X ring (whether I can is another matter) My plan was 155s at short and 168s for windy longs. (I've not tried anything heavier but I think I'd struggle off a bipod).
Now I have to consider the 223
Either way, keep the info coming and hope to see you all at Belmont.
The last time I sourced projectiles I could only get a 1000 of 80.5 gr.
They have been extremely accurate.
You are correct that Berger figures give the VLD about a 5% BC advantage.
Both are way ahead of the Sierra 80gr in BC although the Sierra was extremely accurate also.
Unless you have a genuine medical reason that requires you to shoot off a bench start with prone and work on the technique.
One can shoot just as accurately prone as off a SOLID bench!
The temporary benches people carry to the line offer more problems than prone I believe.
ShaneG wrote:The last time I sourced projectiles I could only get a 1000 of 80.5 gr. They have been extremely accurate. You are correct that Berger figures give the VLD about a 5% BC advantage. Both are way ahead of the Sierra 80gr in BC although the Sierra was extremely accurate also.
Unless you have a genuine medical reason that requires you to shoot off a bench start with prone and work on the technique. One can shoot just as accurately prone as off a SOLID bench! The temporary benches people carry to the line offer more problems than prone I believe.
Im only shooting off a bench for load development because I have only shot prone a couple of times and my groups open up. I cant develope an accurate load of im introducing known human error into it. Once I have my load I will head to a range and learn to shoot prone
Just remember that you can have very accurate 223 loads at 300 yet they will fall apart at the longs due to extreme spreads
As I have said quite a few times - my opinion from experience is that the 223 can be competitive out to 600yds.
Please do not consider it for longs such as a 1000yds.
I would never use one at that distance in a big comp.
We have shot 1000 at Atherton and Townsville with the 223 [and using the same reloading techniques as for my 308 which will hold X ring at 1000] there are enough high/low 4 to discourage such an application.
ShaneG wrote:OK I misunderstood your earlier post - no worries
Just remember that you can have very accurate 223 loads at 300 yet they will fall apart at the longs due to extreme spreads
As I have said quite a few times - my opinion from experience is that the 223 can be competitive out to 600yds.
Please do not consider it for longs such as a 1000yds. I would never use one at that distance in a big comp. We have shot 1000 at Atherton and Townsville with the 223 [and using the same reloading techniques as for my 308 which will hold X ring at 1000] there are enough high/low 4 to discourage such an application.
I wonder if there are any tricks and tips some of the ballistics gurus up north could come up with to reduce the ES/SD of 223s. I absolutely love shooting my 22BR and 22BRX at long range, but they obviously have a much better ES/SD than a 223.
It is pretty much unanimous that a big 308 is better for the long ranges, but what about for a specialist short/mid range tack holer out to around 600yds? Do those of you who have a hard time being consistent with a 308 feel you might save some points in easy X count conditions with a specialist short/mid range 223?
Last edited by RDavies on Fri Jun 27, 2014 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
Rod
Dave Mac and I apply very similar reloading processes now.
He has lifted my game in that area in the last 2 years.
About the only thing I don't do is clean my cases internally with the stainless rods.
I know Dave does this to get rid of uneven carbon build up and thus capacity / pressure differentials.
I only use new or once fired cases in major matches which is similar philosophy.
I simply cant get single digit extreme spreads in the 223.
I use Lapua neck turned and weight sorted cases.
Individually weighed powder charges on Sartorious GD-503.
Shane
PS if you manage a magic formula please pass it on!!!
The lack of recoil is fantastic.
Vicki and I shot the 223 at Mareeba OPM in Feb and at 600 yds off bipod the crosshair did not move out of the black on the target!
Rod, I have had a 223 since 2007. based on a Barnard P, I purchased a 223 bolt body, and just swap in/out the firing pin mechanism.
I built it to shoot country meeting up to 600 yards. What I have learnt from that experience ( not scientifically measured)
My 8 twist is a hummer, but I could not get same accuracy out of a 7 twist, although the 7 twist has performed better with Berger 80.5. The 7 twist did not like Amax's.
Sierra 80 grn worked well. 80 grn Nosler OK, 80 grn Amax inconsistent and Berger 80.5 grn great.
I found that seating depth to be critical, with groups changing with 5 thou changes.
I use a throating reamer to set the 80 grainers long.
My 8 twist is a lovely rifle to shoot, and I use it at the Club shoots most weekends.
Thanks Josh
700M yesterday at Wangetti
First target on top = 223 with 80.5 Bergers example of the vertical issues appearing at the longer ranges with 223.
Quite calm conditions
Second is 308 bit later with a bit more wind shift shows about 1/2 the vertical of the 223.
Last was 223 again with better vertical but one wild shot flyer destroying the score! Shot # 7.
Checking data on this shot showed much higher velocity as TOF approx. 20ms quicker than average.
Picture tells a thousand words!!!
Shane
I'm playing devils advocate here, but how do you know its the cartridges fault and not the tune? Maybe the load isnt quite on. We have quite a few 223 here and many show better vertical then that at long range from what I've seen. Im about to get my 223 barrel chambered for FS.
The barrel has a tuner installed and recently revisited tune.
At the shorter ranges this rifle averages approx. .3moa
Just cannot achieve similar ES as with 308
ShaneG wrote:The barrel has a tuner installed and recently revisited tune. At the shorter ranges this rifle averages approx. .3moa Just cannot achieve similar ES as with 308
RDavies wrote:There has been talk of some people trying 155gn bullets in the short ranges or gentle conditions, then switching to bigger pills for the longs. No one seems to mention using a 223 in place of the 155s for short/mid ranges or easier conditions. My thoughts are that with the lighter weight and bipod of an F/tr rifle, a 223 would be great for the 300-600 ranges, maybe further in gentle conditions. Are any of you looking at building a 223 as a 2nd gun for F/tr, especially since so many of our regional prize shoots are only out to 600yds.
Rod, Exactly what I'm doing for my next project in FTR. My .223 shoots dots so will use it for the shorts then the 30cal for longs with maybe Berger 185's
Or if weather dictates, use the 155's for the shorts. Safe trigger weight will make it very interesting.
Macca,
Accurate, identical precision reloading works.
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