Honest Comments About F/TR

[M12LRPV]

One thing that is coming strong is the desire for F/TR in standard form to be a beginners class.

In standard form it probably won't as it will be in with the customs which is freely acknowledged.

However it could be a beginners class...
Why not make it such and limit it (or grade it) specifically as a factory class?

[M12LRPV]

I think you will find it is the F/TR shooters that are using hunting style rifles that are happy they have somewhere to shoot where they can use unrestricted ammo, as their rifles dislike the regulated stuff.

I find this to be a very interesting statement. Are we saying that shooters don't have places to shoot because their rifle doesn't like standard ammunition?

I have seen people shoot uncompetitive rifles with lots of different ammunition but have never seen them them turned away because they are not accurate enough.

I also wonder at the (new) shooter's ability to afford to experiment with an endless list of alternate components yet not be able to afford a new target barrel.

Mind you experimenting is great. You learn a hell of a lot than you would by getting into line with everyone else. However it's not for everyone. Some do want to take the fast path and all power to them; they just won't achieve it by playing the lottery on a factory rifle in the hope that the component choices will get them there.

[M12LRPV]

Its the skill of the shooter that matters more then the equipment used, if one can use a 24" heavy barrel with 175gr SMKs and get good scores, why should we stop them by saying, "nah sorry mate, you can only use 155gr SMKs or HBC so that means you have to get a rebarrel to get the same performance". Theres $700 - $1000 right there.

Apart from the fact that you contradicted yourself by initially saying that it's the shooter skill that matters then go on to say that it's the projectile you have ignored the fact that any random off the shelf factory rifle could also like the 155's instead of the 175's.

Or it might not like either of them, or it might like both of them...

That's the thing with factory rifles some will shoot, some wont. If you promote them as being competitive then you better make sure they are or you'll be screwing someone over.

[Southcape]

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2009/08/savage-f-tr-team-world-beaters-on-a-budget/

[M12LRPV]

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2009/08/savage-f-tr-team-world-beaters-on-a-budget/

Having shot with a factory savage myself and with a lot of people around me doing the same I love it when people pull out that gem.

I assume that you will be fulfilling your international aspirations using one of those rifles then?

[Southcape]

Savage $1500 - New

My rifle $6500 - New

The link above is the reason why Savage sponsor Team USA. Proof that shooters can be competitive on a budget.

[M12LRPV]

Savage $1500 - New

My rifle $6500 - New

The link above is the reason why Savage sponsor Team USA. Proof that shooters can be competitive on a budget.

And the chance that the $1500 spent on a savage will actually get you a good shooting rifle versus the chance that the $6500 spent on yours will get you a good shooting rifle.

Say 40% versus 100%. How do you call the odds?

[Savage]

those FTR rifles r hell nice, at my local cub I shoot the Savage 6mmbr and find it realy accurate pitty my body isn't at the same stage lol.

I have just bought a Savage Model 12 F/TR in 223 that I will be shooting in FS but if the FTR comes in I will be quickly changing to the FTR class I wil be more accurate out to 1000yards in FTR vs FS. very nice rifle.

[Savage]

on a budget you can't go past the Savage FTR rifle, I paid $1830 for my Mode 12 F/TR you can get a good scope on a budget I got the Bushnell tactical elite 6-24x46 for $900 a Atlas bipod for around $300 I think it is.

for around $3000 for a complete setup is damn good money for a beginner on a budget or for someone that wants to upgrade after shooting there factory hunting rig if they so desire.

people that want to shoot there hunting rifles in a class that they can be some wat competive then have the option of up grading FTR is the perfect pace for that, as oppose to F-S people will shy away from that as they think there rifles will not be competitive.

[Fireman_DJ]

So far, my stock factory Remington 700 Varmint hunting rifle has shot a .8 MOA 5 shot group at 300 yard and scored 41 at 1000 yards in changing wind conditions with ME shooting it.

In similar wind conditions my scores aren't far off that shooting the clubs 6mmBR.

And I have no problem admitting I have trouble reading the wind.
Hell, my second round was 25 because I just plain forgot to look at the flags.

I've always intended on building this rifle up to be better. One review of the rifle had groups go from .7 MOA to .5 MOA just by changing the stock. That's not even trying different ammo.

But with a better shooter behind the trigger, I have no doubt that my rifle is pretty damn accurate right off the shelf.

And as said, the term hunters is a very broad stroke of the pen.
Some hunters like short range rifles, others like long range.
It's the latter with Varmint and Tactical rifles I suspect with form the bulk of F/TR.

[M12LRPV]

So why do you guys think your rifles will be more competitive in F/TR than they can be in F/Std?

In a dedicated F/TR you're still going to be up against full customs costing $6000+

So unless it's carefully graded you wont be competitive. Anyone telling you otherwise is lying to you.

Open component selection will not alter that reality as everyone will be able to pick the components they want. If you can afford a $6000+ rifle you can afford to spend more on custom projectiles.

F-Std has only just gotten big enough to introduce a B-Grade making it suitable for those shooting less competitive equipment.

F/TR won't be big enough to introduce grading for a good while given it's going up against F-Std.

I don't know what picture you guys are being shown of F-Std down there in Gippsland. Not every F-Std rifle is shot of a rest. A lot of shooters at the pointy end shoot off bipods.

Also a lot of shooters at the pointy end who are at maximum weight and shooting off a bipod will be able to make weight in F/TR after they pop their rifles in to have work done to remove the weight and throw on a new lightweight Davies bipod.

It's that you guys have been sold F/TR as a playground for factory rifles that is quite frankly disgusting. F/TR will be no more the playground for factory rifles than F-Std is.

To anyone that wants to know what it will be like shooting F/TR. Go and shoot F-Std. It will be exactly the same.


Perhaps thought fireman DJ is right about one thing. Tactical rifles could likely find their home in F/TR given the animosity towards them. Search the forum for references to tactical rifles and see how they are perceived by many. Perhaps F/TR is just a ploy by some to keep tactical rifles out of F-Std

[AlanF]

M12LRPV,

I am confident that F/TR will be adopted at Rosedale, and that it will be well supported. It is very unlikely in the short term that it will be dominated at the local level by $7000 setups. And a well-sorted Omark, or factory Savage at a third of the price won't be far behind anyway. If down the track we get a trend towards 2 different performance levels, then that can be addressed if the shooters in that class want it, possibly with grading or some division along equipment lines.

But keep on making your negative and spiteful comments M12LRPV. The contrast between your attitude and that of Linda Shehan is quite stark. Through positive thinking she will be captaining a team of Australian shooters at a prestigious international event. Compared to that, your concerted effort to undermine a class of shooting that you don't even intend to participate in looks quite pathetic.

Alan

[Lynn Otto]

Alan see the title of this thread, you should remember it since it was your doing. If this is the honest opinion of these people then they are entitled to it and they are not 'off topic'. To be quite frank I think they are completely correct, after the skill of the shooter, the cost/quality of the equipment is going to be a definite deciding factor. Shooter skill being equal the custom built rifle is probably going to demoralise the factory rifle every time. Maybe this is just speculation but perhaps you can show us in a positive way how an off the shelf rifle is going to compete on an equal footing with a purpose built rifle.

I am more than happy for people to shoot FT/R and I take my hat off to Linda and the others who are hitting the ground running, so to speak. But I agree that we should not be deluding people as to the benefits and possibilities of this class. It is what it is and it has some positives and benefits but it will not necessarily be a panacea for those who were non competitive is Std. Linda was a good Std shooter and I am sure she will be a good FT/R shooter, in both cases with a custom built rifle.

Being honest isn't necessarily being negative.

Just my honest two cents worth...

[AlanF]

Lynn,

Your honest opinion is fine.

BTW the title of the thread is not my doing. This thread was actually started by me as a place for off-topic comments from the "Positive" thread, but the title is not mine.

Alan

[IanP]

One thing that is coming strong is the desire for F/TR in standard form to be a beginners class.

In standard form it probably won't as it will be in with the customs which is freely acknowledged.

However it could be a beginners class...
Why not make it such and limit it (or grade it) specifically as a factory class?

F T/R is F T/R class and nothing more or nothing less than an ICFRA international standard rifle shooting competition class!

My honest comment on all this is quite simply that in a few years time F-Standard will go the way of the dodo and the two ICFRA F-Classes of F-O and F T/R will dominate in Australia.

We will still welcome you M12 to shoot with us as an F-S diehard

Ian