Lynn Otto wrote:Warren if you think the idea of someone trying to replace F Std with F/TR is laughable then reads Ian's post again, read many on Ian's posts.
Lynn,
Forgive me for being a bit thick, but I don't get anything out of Ian's posts saying F-T/R should replace F-Standard. Only that it will likely do it at some point.
I will withdraw from this thread for a bit as it appears that it is still emotionally charged and I do not care to be involved in such discussions.
Just an observation on my part about bullet weights.
2 very well known US wind coaches have told me that there is virtually NO difference in wind drift between the Berger 185 @ ~2800 fps and the Berger 155.5 @ ~3000 fps. Most of the US F-T/R team shoot 155.5s and do very well indeed.
I thought I ought to put that out there since bullet weight restriction seems to be a recurring lament concerning Australian shooting and the discussion.
such as happens now with the lack of FO patronage and hence clubs not providing for them in the prize list.
Obviously John this only pertains to your confined area because we don't have the same problem in SA must be doing something right I guess Its also comes down to the Club hosting the Event if they are not FO friendly why would FO want to go to thier shindig
Let's just leave FSTD as it is
BTW John this is a discussion about F/TR if you don't have any constructive imput you are best putting you efforts elswere.
May I first say that I'm sure Linda intended this thread to be one for positive input for the beginnings of F/TR and I respect that so I will be brief and be out of it.
But to answer Warren's comment let me highlight a couple lines of Ian's post:
IanP wrote: The issue really is about how we eventually arrive at having F-S transform into F T/R without causing any pain and suffering to the F-S aficionados.
I think and have said before in numerous threads on this forum that there needs to be a transition period where both classes shoot side by side for a few years. At the end of a few of years the transition to F T/R ICFRA should be complete. The changes in equipment to meet F T/R compliance when phased in over time are manageable.
Why not phase it in by first relaxing the ammo restrictions Start by allowing F T/TR ammo rules (both 308W & 223R) in the first year.
Then follow on by introducing a bipod rule further down the track and
eventually the class is transformed into F T/R with minimal fuss and bother.
IanP
And Richard, I've watched you protect your bit of the turf so I fail to see why John or anyone else shouldn't be allowed the right to do the same. I for one and I'm sure John as well would be quite happy to 'put our efforts elsewhere' maybe even into helping F/TR happen but comments like "we eventually arrive at having F-S transform into F T/R" tend to put people on edge.
perhaps the fundamental difference between fstd and ftr is this.
fstd was developed to allow the use of australian fullbore target rifles to be used scoped and rested. these rifles are primarily 308 with 1/13" twist barrels and must be able to use factory ammo with certain prescribed bullets of 155 gn.
ftr is aimed at using factory rifles with twists that for commercial reasons allow longer bullets than the fstd rifles do.
the most basic differences are therefore bullet weights allowed and all up rifle weight.
allowing only one of these disciplines limits the potential numbers of bums on mounds, so having both is beneficial.
the current std shooters will guard their 155 gn bullets with their lives, so there is no point in upsetting them, and quite rightly so.
if people want to shoot ftr, they should begin to do so in communication with their clubs, and try to get others doing likewise.
when enough do it it will be recognized as another discipline.
and john is right about prizes. until enough shooters create a critical mass, don't complain about prizes, just be glad if you are included in event. also, sometimes it might be encumbent on a minority group to donate towards their own prize pool.
don't give up linda. it would seem that you are not the only one out there interested in this.
bruce moulds.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, John states he would like F Std
left as it is.
I tend to agree with him.
We need to run F/TR along side F Std and take it from there. To suggest anything else would result in a huge backlash from the current Std shooters, and F/TR will fail to get off the ground.
Bruce, that is the most sensible thing I think I have ever read with your name on it! Thats how F standard got off the ground, I remember in the early days when I headed off to a shoot, I hoped and prayed there would be more than 2 or 3 competing, sometimes yes, sometimes no and you felt like a pain in the arse for just being there. F/TR will start the same way. Persist and you will be rewarded.
Last edited by TOM on Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ok you have started a topical and interesting thread and attracted all the usual suspects, now what?
What is your vision for the future of F T/R in Oz and how will you go about getting it started in WA. I think you will find most people follow a leader and your talking the talk, so how do you plan to walk the walk?
I for one am interested to see how you are planning to go about introducing it and I'm hoping to learn something in the process.
Over to you Linda, let me make it clear, you have my best wishes and full attention.
Linda I like that you have built and intend using an F/TR compatible rifle and are prepared to go out there and promote the class. I like that you have a goal in mind and are prepared to work toward it, without compromising anyone else's enjoyment of the sport. These are all things I can respect, you have my best wishes. Perhaps if I were physically capable of using a bipod I might join you, bipods certainly make managing the rifle a lot easier but thats another story.
ICFRA F T/R has one advantage straight off and that is a set of rules that work better than F-S. It seems the F-S people posting comments about F T/R are more concerned about this thread than their own rules undergoing change.
Just today I posted a thread about F-S rule changes that are under review, but no one has replied, it seems ICFRA F T/R has captured their attention so maybe its off to a good start.
Having a solid rule set is a huge advantage and means shooters looking to try out F T/R know what equipment they need and can buy confidently. F-S is undergoing serious rule fixing as the problems are identified. ICFRA have already addressed the preliminary issues and concentrate on competition.
Rules are the foundation of all competition and ICFRA has established their international code.
ian,
you sound a bit like either/or.
it doesn't have to be that way. ftr & fstd can coexist.
if someone starts ftr and it gets going, we should all support it for mutual benefit.
it will be a bit like free enterprise in that if people want the product it will survive and prosper. the shooting movement will be better for that if it happens.
natural evolution will then decide how the dice roll with regards to proportions of shooters in each of the 3 fclass disciplines.
who knows, open might at some time for a period of time become more popular, but these things will fluctuate.
if you want to do ftr in sa, speak to your club, and offer to donate a perpetual trophy for it. who knows, reason might prevail. there are several tikkas in your club which would slot right in if their owners could be convinced.
I see a common thread here --- while Richard, Ian and Alan shoot FO, they are big fish in a little pond, and the three of them are pushing the idea of FS converting to F/TR.
Perhaps this has something to do with FS scores being on a par with, and in some cases superior, to FO at PMs now that we are on the same target.
I haven't seen Richard shoot in FS, but Alan has put his toe in the water a couple of times in club shoots and hasn't covered himself in glory. Ian tells us he shoots his 223 and 308 in FS, but according to the SAFclass website, he has no FS ranking, which indicates that he has not competed in FS at a SA pm. They are not FSTD people, and I think they should keep their noses out of it -- better that they try to pump up FO than pull FS down.
As I stated earlier, I am quite happy for F/Tr to start up, and anyone from any discipline is welcome to participate. Ian should be among the first to put his money where his mouth is.
I am not against the idea of ICFRA or F/TR, but the whole tone of Richard, Alan and Ian, is anti FSTD. Am I wrong?
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