SH Rule development (read the first post before commenting)

[Tim L]

Yup. I wasn't at the very beginning like you Alan but I can remember f class either not being offered at OPMs or if it was then there wouldn't be any prizes or badges available. We went because we wanted to shoot and knew that the only way those badges and prizes were ever going to happen was to pay our money and support clubs OPMs in the hope that they would see the numbers and support us. It worked out in the end.

And that time there were a set of existing rules defining the guns and equipment to work with. Absolutly zero consideration given to the shooters experience either.
Doubtless whatever rules are adopted not everyone is going to be happy, but that's not the aim.

[Peter Marum]

Hi,
For those that have been around for a while, cast your minds back to when f/std and f/open was in its infancy. The pundits where saying that the sky was going to fall in etc. It didn't, there was lots of sometime "interesting" discussions,and eventually the rules where sorted.
Then along came ftr,and the same ruckus started again, and it sorted itself out, and its going well.
If it was not for f/std, ftr and f/open, there would not be that many rifle ranges and clubs still going.
It's up to us to encourage new shooters to the ranges, stop being negative, and over time rules will evolve. I believe that SH will keep the ranges and clubs going, its in its infancy, so give it a chance

Peter

[Tim L]

Hi,
For those that have been around for a while, cast your minds back to when f/std and f/open was in its infancy. The pundits where saying that the sky was going to fall in etc. It didn't, there was lots of sometime "interesting" discussions,and eventually the rules where sorted.
Then along came ftr,and the same ruckus started again, and it sorted itself out, and its going well.
If it was not for f/std, ftr and f/open, there would not be that many rifle ranges and clubs still going.
It's up to us to encourage new shooters to the ranges, stop being negative, and over time rules will evolve. I believe that SH will keep the ranges and clubs going, its in its infancy, so give it a chance

Peter

Very well said Peter

[RUSTY OMARK]

Watching this discipline grow rapidly in Perth we have seen massive membership growth in our club. While I do like the look of the 3 class rule, I also believe a 2 class rule with a different idea set may be beneficial. There have been people turn up with expensive rigs who are learning how to shoot and some shooters doing extremely well with over the counter rifles. Would it be worth while seperated the shooters by grade like fclass so people compete against the same skill set? Have a a and b grade?

[Tim L]

That might be a possibility. Initially we need to open a competative class. Maybe 2 to split the gear. Once the scores start coming in and numbers support it an A and B grade could be implemented, Hopefully one way though. Once they get in A there is no going back to B.

[BATattack]

3rd event run by the Loxton rifle club that separates factory built repeaters, customised repeaters and single shot target rifles. Both in rimfire and center fire. Had everything from a single shot open sight Lithgow model 1 .22 competing at 100 and 200yds through to custom kelbly, defiance or Borden repeaters at 1200yds

Note that this is an initiative stated by the Loxton rifle club trying to blend f class with, steel targets and FUN! 5 shots at gongs and given ranges in 60 seconds, reload and next 5 targets in 60 seconds. All shot prone off a bipod with no moving. 5 points for a hit.

Not suggesting sporting / hunting should or is moving to steel targets and 60 second strings but just showing with some thought classes can be created to be inclusive.

https://www.results.nraa.com.au/loxton- ... 2-results/

[cheech]

3rd event run by the Loxton rifle club that separates factory built repeaters, customised repeaters and single shot target rifles. Both in rimfire and center fire. Had everything from a single shot open sight Lithgow model 1 .22 competing at 100 and 200yds through to custom kelbly, defiance or Borden repeaters at 1200yds

Note that this is an initiative stated by the Loxton rifle club trying to blend f class with, steel targets and FUN! 5 shots at gongs and given ranges in 60 seconds, reload and next 5 targets in 60 seconds. All shot prone off a bipod with no moving. 5 points for a hit.

Not suggesting sporting / hunting should or is moving to steel targets and 60 second strings but just showing with some thought classes can be created to be inclusive.

https://www.results.nraa.com.au/loxton- ... 2-results/

Everyone turned up with equipment to suit their chosen class and away they went , didn’t hear any protests , just all shot your own string mixed in with whoever on your board shared spotting and scoring duties etc same as any other OPM - no problem

Categories were simple , either it’s factory as bought or custom/modified period !!! Heavy barrel or sporter period !!! Then a single class for our normal NRAA equipment such as like-Barnard single shots 30’ barrel etc , peep or scope your choice

Everyone was aware of all rifles on the line , seasoned shooters aren’t stupid you know who’s been tinkering with stuff , but end of the day you’re only kidding yourself

[Tim L]

It is appreciated that it CAN be done, but this thread is about developing a set of rules so SH can be incorporated into a Queens with clear definitions that state what cannot be done but leaves room for innovation. These rules need to be enforcable i.e. the RO needs to be able to determine what is inside the rules. Loxton is clearly allowed steel on their range, many other NRAA ranges are not. That sort of comp is fine to run at a local level but can't be done Nationally.

EG's
A factory rifle with a new barrel. If we say replacement barrels are OK for Std but accurising puts the gun in open, how does the RO know the action wasn't trued up as part of the barrel fitting?

Stocks and chassis. Someone who bought a standard Howa a couple of years ago has a plastic stock. Clearly a std rifle. Someone buys a Howa in a chassis today clearly a factory rifle.
Shooter 1 puts their Howa in the same chassis Standard or Open?

https://www.thebarn.net.au/categories/1 ... ical/17183

Whilst individuals may think this is pedantic, this is exactly why the rules come under criticism.
The current draft states "any" folding bipod may be used with no further description. Whilst we may understand the intent, a hinged picatinny adaptor makes a joypod a folding bipod ! Yes, someone will do it, and as the rules are written, would be allowed to.
The current draft would allow any FTR rifle to shoot SH open, does that matter?

It seems coming up with a set of general ideas is pretty easy but no one actually wants to put any thought into their mplementation.

[BATattack]

Loxton is just innovating and trying different things. You'll read in my post that I am not suggesting steel targets should be considered in the mix for S/H. But just showing that there is a club actually running shoots with these types of rifles and juggling rules and categories and attempting to make it fair, accessible and fun for as many people as possible. It's not 100% but they finding out what works in a real world situation.


- Rifles must be factory produced. (This means no barrel replacements because as you say once the barrel is out it's all too easy to go that next step and true the action. If the barrel wears out that is the point where the shooter can decide, buy a new rifle, replace barrel and move into S/H open or into one of our other f classes. As suggested factory class is more about getting people in at the ground level to see if it's for them before they decide if they want to step up, than a class that you sit in wearing out multiple barrels / rifles. Most experienced shooters know that the biggest improvement anyone can make to a rifle is to replace ethe barrel. A factory action with a good aftermarket barrel is going to be very close or equal to a "custom" action for accuracy so don't see how it would be fair to allow them to shoot against a genuine factory rifle )
- At the ROs request competitors must provide documentation that the rifle is factory produced in the form of brochure, factory website, factory advertisement. (Note this is different to semi custom rifles being available "off the shelf" from gunshops such as cleavers)

[cheech]

Loxton is just innovating and trying different things. You'll read in my post that I am not suggesting steel targets should be considered in the mix for S/H. But just showing that there is a club actually running shoots with these types of rifles and juggling rules and categories and attempting to make it fair, accessible and fun for as many people as possible. It's not 100% but they finding out what works in a real world situation.


- Rifles must be factory produced. (This means no barrel replacements because as you say once the barrel is out it's all too easy to go that next step and true the action. If the barrel wears out that is the point where the shooter can decide, buy a new rifle, replace barrel and move into S/H open or into one of our other f classes. As suggested factory class is more about getting people in at the ground level to see if it's for them before they decide if they want to step up, than a class that you sit in wearing out multiple barrels / rifles. Most experienced shooters know that the biggest improvement anyone can make to a rifle is to replace ethe barrel. A factory action with a good aftermarket barrel is going to be very close or equal to a "custom" action for accuracy so don't see how it would be fair to allow them to shoot against a genuine factory rifle )
- At the ROs request competitors must provide documentation that the rifle is factory produced in the form of brochure, factory website, factory advertisement. (Note this is different to semi custom rifles being available "off the shelf" from gunshops such as cleavers)

One thing that stands out from everything I’ve read here the biggest sticky point is barrel replacement and associated ‘hidden’ problems that arise to having that edge. I totally agree with Batt , barrel must be original stamped by original manufacturer brand , and I honestly think it’s problem solved . And ANY modifications puts you in open period . Don’t know how it would be done but harnessing the PRS crowd to our shoots would be a HUGE win in modest time

[Tim L]

Loxton is just innovating and trying different things. You'll read in my post that I am not suggesting steel targets should be considered in the mix for S/H. But just showing that there is a club actually running shoots with these types of rifles and juggling rules and categories and attempting to make it fair, accessible and fun for as many people as possible. It's not 100% but they finding out what works in a real world situation.


- Rifles must be factory produced. (This means no barrel replacements because as you say once the barrel is out it's all too easy to go that next step and true the action. If the barrel wears out that is the point where the shooter can decide, buy a new rifle, replace barrel and move into S/H open or into one of our other f classes. As suggested factory class is more about getting people in at the ground level to see if it's for them before they decide if they want to step up, than a class that you sit in wearing out multiple barrels / rifles. Most experienced shooters know that the biggest improvement anyone can make to a rifle is to replace ethe barrel. A factory action with a good aftermarket barrel is going to be very close or equal to a "custom" action for accuracy so don't see how it would be fair to allow them to shoot against a genuine factory rifle )
- At the ROs request competitors must provide documentation that the rifle is factory produced in the form of brochure, factory website, factory advertisement. (Note this is different to semi custom rifles being available "off the shelf" from gunshops such as cleavers)

One thing that stands out from everything I’ve read here the biggest sticky point is barrel replacement and associated ‘hidden’ problems that arise to having that edge. I totally agree with Batt , barrel must be original stamped by original manufacturer brand , and I honestly think it’s problem solved . And ANY modifications puts you in open period . Don’t know how it would be done but harnessing the PRS crowd to our shoots would be a HUGE win in modest time

You say modifications but what about the stock chassis issues?.
If shootable barreled actions can now be bought in chassis could we allow anyone to drop their action into a chassis and put the modification line with armourer work? New barrels, blueprinting etc.
Let's face it, someone at the point of needing a new barrel isn't a beginner any more. Someone simply choosing to replace a barrel is probably a little higher on the knowledge ladder.
Anyone looking to shoot long range should really be looking to stiffen and bed an t plastic stock but for the effort involved (I've done it) they would be better off getting a chassis.

[BATattack]

If they come from the FACTORY in a chassis you can use it. As soon as you start allowing mix and match and modifications that's where the slippery slope starts. Like I said you need to appreciate the different between a FACTORY rifle and one that is has been assembled with aftermarket parts and sold through dealers such as cleavers and like you have shown at the barn as OFF THE SHELF. Again this leads to a slippery slope. Well ziersch custom rifles just happened to have this modified rifle and I bought it "off the shelf" . . . . . .. . How was I to know it had XYZ upgrades done to it?


Yes thats what I've been getting at. Even for a beginner a barrel replacement is only going to come after about 1500 rounds so 1-2yrs of shooting and would have decided if this is the sport for them and understand the implications of changing the barrel and what options they have. So it shouldn't come as a surprise to a "new" or experienced shooter.

[Tim L]

If they come from the FACTORY in a chassis you can use it. As soon as you start allowing mix and match and modifications that's where the slippery slope starts. Like I said you need to appreciate the different between a FACTORY rifle and one that is has been assembled with aftermarket parts and sold through dealers such as cleavers and like you have shown at the barn as OFF THE SHELF. Again this leads to a slippery slope. Well ziersch custom rifles just happened to have this modified rifle and I bought it "off the shelf" . . . . . .. . How was I to know it had XYZ upgrades done to it?
.

So how do the ROs stay abreast of what factory rifles come in a chassis and which don't. Tikkas do, all be it over the suggested price mark. Don't Howa sell 1500s in a Boyds stock? But the fact remains, all manufacturers are likelyto move this way cos it sells guns
You describe it as a slippery slope. What we need to do is set the top and bottom of the slope. Folks can slide up and down it all they like.
If you're going to allow new buyers to have a chassis (a definate advantage)it seems a little unfair to prevent others using them, or force them to buy a new gun to compete in Standard Totally against the proposed intent of the discipline .

[AlanF]

...or force them to buy a new gun to compete in Standard Totally against the proposed intent of the discipline.

Force???? If there were two classes no-one would be forcing anyone to do anything Tim! If they want to modify a rifle, or arrive with a modified rifle, they could compete in the class which allows some modifications. Simple.

[BATattack]

Loxton is just innovating and trying different things. You'll read in my post that I am not suggesting steel targets should be considered in the mix for S/H. But just showing that there is a club actually running shoots with these types of rifles and juggling rules and categories and attempting to make it fair, accessible and fun for as many people as possible. It's not 100% but they finding out what works in a real world situation.


- Rifles must be factory produced. (This means no barrel replacements because as you say once the barrel is out it's all too easy to go that next step and true the action. If the barrel wears out that is the point where the shooter can decide, buy a new rifle, replace barrel and move into S/H open or into one of our other f classes. As suggested factory class is more about getting people in at the ground level to see if it's for them before they decide if they want to step up, than a class that you sit in wearing out multiple barrels / rifles. Most experienced shooters know that the biggest improvement anyone can make to a rifle is to replace ethe barrel. A factory action with a good aftermarket barrel is going to be very close or equal to a "custom" action for accuracy so don't see how it would be fair to allow them to shoot against a genuine factory rifle )
- At the ROs request competitors must provide documentation that the rifle is factory produced in the form of brochure, factory website, factory advertisement. (Note this is different to semi custom rifles being available "off the shelf" from gunshops such as cleavers)

One thing that stands out from everything I’ve read here the biggest sticky point is barrel replacement and associated ‘hidden’ problems that arise to having that edge. I totally agree with Batt , barrel must be original stamped by original manufacturer brand , and I honestly think it’s problem solved . And ANY modifications puts you in open period . Don’t know how it would be done but harnessing the PRS crowd to our shoots would be a HUGE win in modest time

You say modifications but what about the stock chassis issues?.
If shootable barreled actions can now be bought in chassis could we allow anyone to drop their action into a chassis and put the modification line with armourer work? New barrels, blueprinting etc.
Let's face it, someone at the point of needing a new barrel isn't a beginner any more. Someone simply choosing to replace a barrel is probably a little higher on the knowledge ladder.
Anyone looking to shoot long range should really be looking to stiffen and bed an t plastic stock but for the effort involved (I've done it) they would be better off getting a chassis.

As per my original rules proposal, what I put in the post that you quoted above and I'll now post below this comment

-At the ROs request competitors must provide documentation that the rifle is factory produced in the form of brochure, factory website, factory advertisement. (Note this is different to semi custom rifles being available "off the shelf" from gunshops such as cleavers)

Don't you kind of see that in factory class, unmodified rifles with a price cap . . . . . . There aren't going to be many factory rifles with a chassis. Those that do have the "advantage" of a chassis will probably be compromised by having a lower quality barreled action. Say Howa in a KRG chassis vs a tikka timber varmint.