Honest Comments About F/TR

M12LRPV · Post by **M12LRPV** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:20 pm

So rather than a realist I'm now a F-Std diehard or worse I'm just spiteful.

If we want to contrast me to Linda Shehan then please do so. After all I don't have access to the resources that she does.

I started out at an extremely low budget supporting two shooters with one rifle and have worked up to a rifle that is now competitive.

I have done in F-Std what everyone seems to be implying is not possible in F-Std but will be possible in F/TR.

For people entering F-Std and people entering F/TR there will be no difference.

Nothing will change and the fantasy claims for F/TR are just that. Anyone that want's to prove me wrong is free to do just that.

But (to Alan in particular) you can make all of the personal insults you want. After all it's your forum and you've had a bee in your bonnet over me for ages as I tend to pull you up when you start talking crap and even got stuck into you when you screwed up the F-Open rear bag rule.

I expected nothing less than what you did censoring my comments from the other other thread and entitling it as negative comments when it wasn't. It was just realistic which you would genuinely know if you ever came down off your lofty perch and spent time in the real world.

RAVEN · Post by **RAVEN** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:53 pm

M12 you have a bigger fan club than Just Alan
We just choose not to engage.

Tell me M12
SAVAGE Arms has put into production a rifle specifically built to compete in the F/TR class why would a multi million $$ company invest in such a venture. Is Savage trying to dupe ppl :?:

OnO

DaveMc · Post by **DaveMc** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:40 pm

M12LRPV wrote:
Southcape wrote:http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2009/08/savage-f-tr-team-world-beaters-on-a-budget/

Having shot with a factory savage myself and with a lot of people around me doing the same I love it when people pull out that gem.

I assume that you will be fulfilling your international aspirations using one of those rifles then?

M12LRPV - I will be!!

Some facts for you. My savage factory action and factory stock won me the grand agg at the nationals this year (admittedly it has a nice barrel on it now but did allright before and was a great place to start). I take two Savages on the road with me and they have won a few leadups and queens now. Also the most accurate rifle I have in my kit (at 300 yards anyway) is a stock standard Tikka 308 (I don't say that lightly as I have some pretty accurate rifles). I liked it so much I bought one in 7-08 and converted to 284SH - it too is very accurate. Another fact there are 3 Tikka 308's in our club that regularly figure in the running (at club level). This is not 1 in a 1000 stuff. You can guarantee much better than MOA out of a Tikka and actually you should expect better than 0.5.

But facts aside i personally think everyone that owns a factory 308 should be encouraged to come and try F class. They may not have an accurate rifle and they may not know how to load accurate ammo yet but who cares. get them out there. Will FTR be magically better than F standard - Probably not. Will beginners be winning FTR. Probably not. But will most of them enjoy it. A class that they can go straight into with a bipod and shoot factory ammo and anything they want (even if only at 300). It is going to get them a taste.

I am a savage and Tikka fan so I may be biased but I think these are two great options for people to get into F class. Buy a savage FTR for 308 and shoot FTR it could be good straight off the bat but certainly good enough to get you a taste. A custom barrel later and you can be shooting at "international level". Buy a Tikka 308 and you can expect to purchase a rifle accurate enough to shoot 60's (at short range anyway). All at a fraction of the cost of a custom and all good enough options to get you into the sport.

M12LRPV · Post by **M12LRPV** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:42 pm

RAVEN wrote:Tell me M12
SAVAGE Arms has put into production a rifle specifically built to compete in the F/TR class why would a multi million $$ company invest in such a venture. Is Savage trying to dupe ppl
OnO

Why wouldn't they? It's an untapped market.

The only difference between it and my original rifle is the barrel profile and the stock design. How is your one going?

The savage rifles are ones where you can buy it off the shelf and head out and not have people straight away tell you that there's no way you'll even hit the target. They use the correct twist rates in their barrels and they chamber their rifles properly with proper throats. The actions are strong and the triggers work well and are very safe against accidental discharges. They are the perfect rifle with which to burn out a barrel learning to shoot before you spend your hard earned on a match grade barrel and get serious. With a rebarrel they will perform with the most expensive customs. But the standard barrels are mass produced factory barrels and carry with them all the limitations associated with that heritage.

But those points aren't being argued are they? The issue of mine (that I think you were trying to address) is with the claims that every one of these will have you competitive at the top end of the F/TR game, which is never going to be true.

Maybe you should ask a question that is actually relevant to the issue. Actually thinking about it, the irrelevance of your question highlights your ignorance of the issue.

While there are a lot of people very unhappy with me for speaking the truth no one has put up a single piece of evidence to disprove what I have said.

That must really stick in ones craw.

RAVEN · Post by **RAVEN** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:02 pm

The issue of mine (that I think you were trying to address) is with the claims that every one of these will have you competitive at the top end of the F/TR game, which is never going to be true.

M12 I think you are starting beleive your own rhetoric :oops:

bruce moulds · Post by **bruce moulds** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:47 pm

m12,
perhaps if you learned to put things in a more constructive manner, people would respond to your posts in a different way.
no offence meant or implied,
bruce moulds.

Post by **AlanF** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:10 am

M12LRPV wrote:(to Alan in particular)... you screwed up the F-Open rear bag rule.

M12LRPV,

This statement is wrong, and I'm asking you to retract it.

Alan

Woody_rod · Post by **Woody_rod** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:59 am

M12LRPV wrote:
(bla bla bla)

But the standard barrels are mass produced factory barrels and carry with them all the limitations associated with that heritage.

(bla bla bla)

Now that is also not true. In reality, there are top level international shooters use the factory original barrels, as fitted at the factory (particularly in team savage). These people win and place highly in big international comps, not some back woods prize meeting that the rest of the world has never heard of.

Savage factory barrels (in this example) are known to shoot extremely well. I have seen very good performance from them in various places around Australia, and in places like Bisley. Maybe you should travel and see for yourself and find some facts to put in your sentences.

Darrell Buell · Post by **Darrell Buell** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:43 am

M12LRPV wrote:It's that you guys have been sold F/TR as a playground for factory rifles that is quite frankly disgusting. F/TR will be no more the playground for factory rifles than F-Std is.

Ahh "M12",

As the subject of "that little gem", I'm here to tell you that the prevalence of factory rifles, even at the top end of the F-T/R game here, is growing in leaps and bounds. In this year's National Championships, 3 of the top 6 spots (out of 70 odd F-T/R shooters) were running stock Savage rifles of various flavors.

Furthermore, the current US National Records for 600 and 1000 yard Team competition are held by Team Savage, running bone stock Savages against $6000 customs.

To imply that factory rifles are not spreading through the ranks of International F-T/R class (and performing at the top level) frankly shows your ignorance of the situation around the world.

At the end of the day, it really comes down to the ability of the shooter, not their pocketbook. In the US anyway, the top 6 or 8 shooters are pretty much at a similar level (running a mixture of factory and custom rifles). On a given day, any of them can rise to the top. At this year's Nationals, Jeff Rorer got me by a few spots, in turn, I had pipped him by a few spots at the Irish National Championships.

The raw accuracy achievable from a stock rifle with proper handloads differs not at all from the group sizes I am seeing from top dollar customs. For me to take a given load to a major National/International level match, I insist that the rifle/ammo combination be able to run a 2-3cm group at 300 meters (5 shots, first thing in the morning before mirage or wind build). That's with my "mass produced factory barrel".

My current competition setup:
Savage Model 12 F-T/R
Nightforce Optics
GG&G or Sinclair Bipod
Winchester Brass
Varget (your ADI 2208) powder
Berger 155.5 "Fullbore" bullets

Best Regards,

Darrell Buell
Captain, Team USA

DaveMc · Post by **DaveMc** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:10 am

Thanks Darrell and fantastic effort time and again by you guys. Can you have a word in Savages ear about producing a 7mm - Then I would be confident Factory Savages would appear high in the rankings of F OPEN as well Maybe sponsor a "Team Savage- Australia" Ha Ha.

I think one of the things that I have often heard in travelling is Team Savage has "special" factory barrels. That is something that really needs to be addressed and M12 obviously feels he got a dud to start. I can also speak on Savages behalf here. The factory 6BR barrel I purchased with stock rifle was as accurate as any custom I have used. The 6.5*284 was also quite capable. It is often touted that with any barrel manufacturer (custom or factory) there are good and bad. I can also say the 6.5*284 I purchased was one that someone had purchased, put through 50 odd rounds, thought was crap and discarded (so this also was supposedly a "DUD"). That barrel is still going strong (now as a 6.5*47 shorter version) some 2000 plus rounds later (1200 as 6.5*284) and still shooting around 0.4moa.

Barry Davies · Post by **Barry Davies** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:11 am

One little thing that everybody is overlooking is that the Aussie target has another scoring ring inside the ICFRA bullseye at half the diameter of same.
This means that our rifles have to group at 1/2 moa all ranges ( almost )
This 1/2 bull ring IS a scoring ring so our rifles simply have to be that good otherwise luck plays a larger part than it normally would.
Barry

DaveMc · Post by **DaveMc** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:55 am

Hi Barry, I think you will find the ICFRA F class targets are the same as ours they just score the X a V and the 6 a 5 (as per TR). Jannie Els kindly informed me at the TR World championships. Below is an extract of their Target dimensions found on the ICFRA site under F class rules and last annexure

Sorry its messy but

B2. The ICFRA International F-Class Target (Short Range)
B2.1 A V-bull ½ the size of the TR V-bull within the ICFRA International Match Target for short
range, with the original v-bull counting bull-5 and so on viz:-
(All measurements in mm to the outer edge of the scoring line)
Distance
300 yds 500yds 600yds 300m 500m 600m
Aiming Mark 560 915 915 600 1000 1000
V-Bull 32 65 72 35 72 80
Bull 65 130 145 70 145 160
Inner 130 260 290 140 290 320
Magpie 260 600 600 280 660 660
Outer 390 915 915 420 1000 1000
Hit ROT ROT ROT ROT ROT ROT
The bull will count 5 points unless the conditions of the match specify otherwise. The other rings score
successively one point less.
D3.1. The target for 700 yds will be that for 600 m. If a 400yds or 400m target is required, the
300yds or 300m target (as appropriate) may be used, with aiming mark and rings increased
proportionately - i.e. x4/3 in diameter.
B3 The ICFRA International F-Class Target (Long Range)
B3.1 In mm - Targets printed in Imperial Units are acceptable
Distance 700m – 1000 yds
Black 1118 (44”)
V-Bull 128 (5”)
Bull 254 (10”)
Inner 508 (20”)
Magpie 815 (32”)
Outer 1118 (44”)
Hit ROT
The bull will count 5 points unless the conditions of the match specify otherwise.

RAVEN · Post by **RAVEN** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:37 am

Dave you are spot on
I helped develop the Super V as we call it and the dimensions between what we use now and our friend in the USA are identical.
Cheers
RB

P.S. the V ring inside dim. (thickness) is different

Woody_rod · Post by **Woody_rod** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:07 am

RAVEN wrote:Dave you are spot on
I helped develop the Super V as we call it and the dimensions between what we use now and our friend in the USA are identical.
Cheers
RB
P.S. the V ring inside dim. (thickness) is different

Actually, they are not identical. The US target has a 1 MOA bull (10 ring) and a 1/2 MOA X ring at all ranges. Ours vary from 0.86 MOA V / 6 ring at 300y to 1.3 MOA for the 800y. It would have been more sensible to have the 6 ring at all ranges to be 1 MOA. Our targets at 800, 900 and 1000y (700, 800 and 900m - same diff) are the same as the US Palma target, all being 1 MOA center at 1000y, and equates to 1.3 MOA at 800y.

This means on average the ICFRA targets have inconsistent scoring rings at each range, and on average are larger than the US targets.

Darryl, correct me if I am wrong.

DaveMc · Post by **DaveMc** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:46 am

Correct Rod. I think Barry was talking about the ICFRA targets though (I certainly was and stated that at the start) and those which the international FTR and F open teams shoot on. I assume FTR in Raton 2013 FCWC will be shot on ICFRA targets. But I imagine you will probably face the US targets this year when you travel.
If anything your point that the US targets may actually average smaller certainly counters the view that some have that we need more accurate rifles here!