Expression of Interest: F/Std to be offered in APS 2024

[ajvanwyk]

Dear F-Standard Community,

As a valued Australian F Class community member, your experiences and opinions are vital to shaping the future of our events and competitions. We're conducting a survey specifically tailored for F-Standard shooters, and we would greatly appreciate your participation.

Survey Details:

Duration: The survey will take approximately 2 minutes to complete.
Confidentiality: All responses will be kept confidential and used only for the purpose of improving APS events and activities.
Deadline: The survey will be open for 2 weeks and close 3 February 2024

How to Participate:

Click on this link to access the survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/TZNJGSD

We look forward to hearing your thoughts!

[RMc]

Albert, I am unsure what you are doing here, for the whole time you have been pushing the APS to advance F-Class it seemed that only FO and FTR were the whole story in Australia, now you have found FStd but you do not want them but FTR-ish FStd. The preference would be for this FTR-ish group to compete with the FTR, but there is no hint that the ammo would be restricted to 155gn to even the playing field.
My feeling is that your opinion that the current FStd rules have been bastardized is behind this and you are willing to put up with some things to increase the events numbers.
I will leave it there, see you in Sydney.

RMc

[argh]

Albert, I am unsure what you are doing here, for the whole time you have been pushing the APS to advance F-Class it seemed that only FO and FTR were the whole story in Australia, now you have found FStd but you do not want them but FTR-ish FStd. The preference would be for this FTR-ish group to compete with the FTR, but there is no hint that the ammo would be restricted to 155gn to even the playing field.
My feeling is that your opinion that the current FStd rules have been bastardized is behind this and you are willing to put up with some things to increase the events numbers.
I will leave it there, see you in Sydney.

RMc

Agreed

Like it or not, F Standard is THE most popular version of F Class in Australia. I also realise that those who want to compete at international level have in recent years changed over and reduced some of the top F Std competitors, but a simple check of recent Kings and country OPMs shows that 1. Numbers competing in F Std are often higher than FTR and F Open. & 2, the scores are up close, or often above FTR scores, and in some cases above F Open scores ( even with those restrictive 155s... but hey, they do level the playing field)... just goes to prove that the current crop of F Std shooters are more than proficient.

So I am not sure of the bias/prejudice against F Std in this APS series? Are we trying to copy the yanks verbatim? Or is there some other reason why the most popular local version of F Class is precluded?

I am out of comps at the moment due to personal/health reasons from last year, but will be back soon and i would love to join the APS series, but i am not happy with the prejudice against the local Aussie discipline that seems to be coming through.

Hope to see you all on the range again soon.

Cheers
Adrian

[jasmay]

Agreed

Like it or not, F Standard is THE most popular version of F Class in Australia. I also realise that those who want to compete at international level have in recent years changed over and reduced some of the top F Std competitors, but a simple check of recent Kings and country OPMs shows that 1. Numbers competing in F Std are often higher than FTR and F Open. & 2, the scores are up close, or often above FTR scores, and in some cases above F Open scores ( even with those restrictive 155s... but hey, they do level the playing field)... just goes to prove that the current crop of F Std shooters are more than proficient.

So I am not sure of the bias/prejudice against F Std in this APS series? Are we trying to copy the yanks verbatim? Or is there some other reason why the most popular local version of F Class is precluded?

I am out of comps at the moment due to personal/health reasons from last year, but will be back soon and i would love to join the APS series, but i am not happy with the prejudice against the local Aussie discipline that seems to be coming through.

Hope to see you all on the range again soon.

Cheers
Adrian

I love looking at stats:

Fstd Vs FTR Vs FO 2023 Kings Series


In 2023 kings considering A grade F-Std alone (not a fair comparison to include B as the other disciplines don’t have B and would likely have more attendance if they did).(however when considering both A&B grade, no single event had more F-Std shooters in both grades than FTR/FO combined).

Keeping in mind FTR is the newest (but globally accepted) F-Class discipline only getting fully accepted from around 2015 in Australia (less than 10 years old).

* Fstd had more attendance than F-Open at only one event SARA

* F-Open had more attendance than Fstd in 7 out of 9 events and tied in 1, only once did Fstd have more

* F-Std had more attendance than FTR in 6 from 9 events

Ranking disciplines FO beat Fstd 8 out of 9 events and FTR beat Fstd 5 out of 9, so the comment Fstd often beats FTR doesn’t quite hold water in the 2023 kings series.

ACT (F-std top score, FO then FTR)

Fstd A - 22
FO - 28
FTR - 27

NQRA (F-Open Top, FTR then Fstd)

Fstd A - 16
FO - 19
FTR - 12

NSW (F-Open Top FTR then Fstd)

Fstd A - 13
FO - 32
FTR - 18

QRA (top score FO, F-Std then FTR)

Fstd A - 26
FO - 33
FTR - 24

SARA (FO Top Score, FTR then Fstd)

Fstd A - 9
FO - 8
FTR - 6

VRA (FO too score, Fstd then FTR)

Fstd A - 22
FO - 25
FTR - 13

WARA (FO top score, FTR then Fstd)

Fstd A - 11
FO - 11
FTR - 9

TRA (FO, FTR then Fstd)

Fstd A - 6
FO - 7
FTR - 3

NRAA (FO top score, fstd then FTR)

Fstd A - 14
FO - 41
FTR - 23

All that said, comparing the 3 disciplines is a frivolous endeavor in my opinion, the stats are interesting to see, but beyond that mean ZERO as the disciplines vary widely in rules. No one ranks/compares Go Carts vs Touring Cars Vs F1 for performance, because it’s frivolous as is to compare Fstd vs FO Vs FTR.

The NRAA made the right decision supporting FTR & F-Open, now adding 2 gold a Silver & a Bronze from world level team events & dozens of individual medals over 3 consecutive events.. Australia is a force to be reckoned with on the international F-Class stage and is a country that is well accepted at such events.

With Australia hosting the F-Class World Championships in 2030, I wonder how many more may make the switch to an ICFRA discipline to have the chance to compete on the world stage and win an individual title…

Perhaps Australia can convince the rest of the world to adopt F-Std before 2030 rolls around…

[Barry Davies]

Shows you how popular FS is when people go to do much trouble to put it down.

[jasmay]

Shows you how popular FS is when people go to do much trouble to put it down.

Who is putting it down?

[PeteFox]

So we've got someone trying to open FStd up to international competition and we get a shit fight .

IMO FStd off a bipod would closely align with FTR Classic as shot in NZ, it would open up another international competition, and you don't want it?
WTF!

I think the yanks and others would get right on board with this.
Pete

[Matt P]

What I also find interesting is those that don't compete or would attend these type of events or god forbid go to trouble of running an event like this, have plenty to say.
Very common in our sport, do nothing to help it grow but piss and moan when someone actually gets off their arse and does something but not their way of thinking.
Matt P

[Barry Davies]

No. Shit Fight Peter, and I never said I did not want FS as an international comp. Quite the opposite actually. But we are not talking about international comp.
Where Albert made the mistake was not including FS from the get go.
It appears it is now required either by popular demand or to boost numbers.

[Chopper]

Be good to see an update on the survey in regards to FS

[argh]

I love looking at stats:

In 2023 kings considering A grade F-Std alone (not a fair comparison to include B as the other disciplines don’t have B and would likely have more attendance if they did).(however when considering both A&B grade, no single event had more F-Std shooters in both grades than FTR/FO combined).

You may love Stats. However you need to use the numbers correctly. Deliberately excluding competitors numbers to suit an outcome is not statistics (ignoring base data). I stated, is often most popular class at many OPMs and Kings. By total competitor numbers. ie those that turn up to the comps and support.

As for international competition i am right behind those that want to do this, shooting FTR or F Open, as they are internationally recognised ICFRA, and the only way to shoot world championships. For many OPM shooters, they don't have any desire to shoot internationally, but do like travelling and competing throughout Australia. Cost is a major factor for many. Attending OPMs is not too bad, Kings interstate adds up $ and time.

Pete and Jason, i don't think anyone is pushing for the rest of the world to look at F Std, and i certainly have not stated this anywhere. What i have stated, is that if there is an Australian Points Competition, why is F Std not included? The mission for the APS is:
to drive more engagement, awareness and participation in our sport – FClass


If the reason for the APS is to promote Australian F Class shooters to be more competitive at an international level and limit it to international classes. Then thats fine, state that objective. And i feel that this is probably more the case Albert? If not, then leaving out F Std, or as the survey suggests possibly creating another new bastardized version of f std off a bipod..... is this more participation?

And as for getting involved in promoting our sport, running OPMs and being involved in organising. I sincerely hope this is not aimed at me.

Oh, and for everyones information, I shoot F Open at club level every week, so please dont even suggest that i am anti F Open, or only driving my personal agenda for F Std. I would like to see an Australian Points Series involve all the competition Classes. If this series its a promotion/training series for future international competitions, then that is what it is. And yes Jason, as the 2030 worlds approach, i am sure you will see many switch to Open or FTR, likely myself at comp level. But right now, we should support all current Australian classes if we are trying to promote all local F Class.

Cheers
Adrian

BTW Albert, i hope you get involved in this discussion, not like the last social experiment https://www.ozfclass.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=15543&p=111879#p111879

[jasmay]

I love looking at stats:

In 2023 kings considering A grade F-Std alone (not a fair comparison to include B as the other disciplines don’t have B and would likely have more attendance if they did).(however when considering both A&B grade, no single event had more F-Std shooters in both grades than FTR/FO combined).

You may love Stats. However you need to use the numbers correctly. Deliberately excluding competitors numbers to suit an outcome is not statistics (ignoring base data). I stated, is often most popular class at many OPMs and Kings. By total competitor numbers. ie those that turn up to the comps and support.

Adrian, one must at least consider that without a "B" grade, FTR & FO are at a disadvantage when it comes to side-by-side comparison, there are many new shooters in both grades that I know that will not spend the money on a Kings or even an OPM because they feel they won't be competitive, I have had the same feedback from some F-Std shooters that compete in "B" grade, that is, they would not compete if there is only an "A" grade because they would not be competitive.

It's hard to compare when you are not comparing the same things, however, I will add that data as you have suggested and see where we land.

One could take an assumption and use the percentage of B vs A in F-Std to determine roughly what percentage both FTR & FO may attract to a B grade comp.

You could also ask, why with the numbers in F-Open, does it not have a "B" grade division, for instance at the NRAA kings in 2023, F-Std had 24 competitors across both grades, with open having 41 in total and FTR only slightly behind with 23. (What precludes FO from deserving a "B" grade given it has more attending?).

Interesting discussion

[PeteFox]

. (What precludes FO from deserving a "B" grade given it has more attending?).

Interesting discussion

Because Open is Open, by definition, Open means NOT GRADED - don't dumb it down.
Pete

[argh]

Hi Jason.

I think a time has come that grading in Open may contibute more numbers. The top end of the current F Open comps is very tight. This is probably one of the reasons so many like staying with Standard at a club level. The US has a grading system, maybe something to think about.

Intoducing a B Grade in F Open may get more from F Std to convert. But starts the whole multi level graded comp conversation that was had last year. -> Merge F Std and Open? Like it or not, the two have gotten very close in rules. Only 1.5kg difference, and trigger weight, plus the obvious 155gr/308 or 223 ballistic leveller.

Out of interest, was the increase in numbers at the NRAA kings due to the teams trials at that time? I can't recall.. A bit like Bendigo 2 years ago when the F Class teams were on beforehand. Numbers of fclass compared to TR were massively up that year. Canberra this year will be the same.

Cheers
Adrian

[jasmay]

. (What precludes FO from deserving a "B" grade given it has more attending?).

Interesting discussion

Because Open is Open, by definition, Open means NOT GRADED - don't dumb it down.
Pete

Open means not graded