F/TR... Really... Who is interested?

TOM · Post by **TOM** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:57 am

Anyone know anyone?

Barry Davies · Post by **Barry Davies** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:10 am

The South Africans are VERY interested in our F Standard --way to go they reckon, beats getting your brains bashed out by a light weight rifle shooting 210 grain projectiles.
Could be the start of something big.

Barry

TOM · Post by **TOM** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:05 am

Yes Barry, im sure shooting a 210 from a 8.25 kg rifle would be an absolute blast! Another thing to add to your shooting bag would be a few packets of panadol, a tube of deep heat for that shoulder might come in handy too!

If what you say about South Africa is anything to go by, maybe the rest of the world is looking at what we are doing too.

Woody_rod · Post by **Woody_rod** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:28 am

Hey guys, maybe some research about your subject might go well here. South Africa has recently gone across to F/TR after having what the called F National - essentially their own version of F std. Nobody is looking at F std for adoption.

F std has a place, but it has no international competition. If people (like my wife and I) want to shoot internationally, we need to be shooting one of either: TR, F Open or F/TR.

TOM, maybe a box of tissues would be handy with your panadol

Edit: one other thing, the typical projectiles used are either 155 or 185 grain in 308. This comes from speaking to top shooters in F/TR, rather than just using guess work. Recoil in either choice is manageable, and IS THE part about F/TR that is the real handicap.

Norm · Post by **Norm** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:31 am

What's not to like?
Cheap to run, plenty of accuracy, lots of wind drift to make it interesting, good competition with similar rifles.
The best shooter wins on the day as it should be in any event.

TOM · Post by **TOM** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:22 am

Woody, why would you use a 155 when you have a choice of far superior projectiles? That sounds like more of a hadicap to me!

Norm.. Cheap to run :-k

go and price the best 190 or 200 grain projectile available and then tell me its cheap compared to F standard, if you move into F/TR you need the best available to be competitive, much like F open. The restricted nature of F standard is why it has a much bigger following over here, Its not so much a money game when the comparison is made.

Anyway, this isn't supposed to be about anything other than who is interested, can we get some figures going?

Southcape · Post by **Southcape** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:27 am

I have 4 shooters confirmed as interested here in the West.

Others say they will switch if they have to, and then others remaining say they will switch to F Open.

Woody_rod · Post by **Woody_rod** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:04 pm

TOM wrote:Woody, why would you use a 155 when you have a choice of far superior projectiles? That sounds like more of a hadicap to me!

Norm.. Cheap to run go and price the best 190 or 200 grain projectile available and then tell me its cheap compared to F standard, if you move into F/TR you need the best available to be competitive, much like F open. The restricted nature of F standard is why it has a much bigger following over here, Its not so much a money game when the comparison is made.

Anyway, this isn't supposed to be about anything other than who is interested, can we get some figures going?

There are quite a few interested that I know. You talk about projectile choices, but you are wrong. Many top guys use 155's, I know these people and chat to them every week.

The advantages on heavier projectiles are not what you might think. There are people in F std using farley rests, BAT actions, macmillan stocks, top barrels - where is the cost saving in F std?

TOM · Post by **TOM** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:14 pm

where is the cost saving in F std?

Projectile.

People are going to choose a better one than a 155, so in order not to be behind the eight ball, you are forced to go with it.

So you will use 155's Woody? I doubt it!

Linda, Why will they switch to F open? is F standard to be phased out?

Woody_rod · Post by **Woody_rod** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:37 pm

Your argument does not hold water. If you know how a ballistics calculator works, plug these figures in:

155.5 grain berger fullbore projectile
3100 fps

185 VLD berger projectile
2750 fps

You will find there is no advantage in using the 185 projectile. The outcomes relate exactly to what people are using in competitions right now. Both loads are based on user data given to me direct from the shooters - people at the top of the game. Heavier projectiles than 185s give worse performance at 1000y, more recoil and kill cases a lot faster.

The 3100fps can be achieved, my own rifle is running close to this now with HBCs with no pressure signs.

If the MV cannot be kept constant, there is no advantage in a heavier, higher BC projectile - other than potentially less elevation dispersion from the greater mass. The heavier projectile idea is simply a theory that does not translate well to the range, especially with a limited case capacity of the 308W.

If using HBC projectiles at between 3000 and 3100fps, this would be a very effective load for F/TR.

Matt P · Post by **Matt P** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:42 pm

Woody_rod wrote:Your argument does not hold water. If you know how a ballistics calculator works, plug these figures in:

155.5 grain berger fullbore projectile
3100 fps

185 VLD berger projectile
2750 fps

You will find there is no advantage in using the 185 projectile. The outcomes relate exactly to what people are using in competitions right now. Both loads are based on user data given to me direct from the shooters - people at the top of the game. Heavier projectiles than 185s give worse performance at 1000y, more recoil and kill cases a lot faster.

The 3100fps can be achieved, my own rifle is running close to this now with HBCs with no pressure signs.

If the MV cannot be kept constant, there is no advantage in a heavier, higher BC projectile - other than potentially less elevation dispersion from the greater mass. The heavier projectile idea is simply a theory that does not translate well to the range, especially with a limited case capacity of the 308W.

If using HBC projectiles at between 3000 and 3100fps, this would be a very effective load for F/TR.

So why do the match rifle guys use 200-210 ????? 3100 with 155's :shock:

cases wouldn't last long.
Matt P

Woody_rod · Post by **Woody_rod** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:57 pm

Matt P wrote:So why do the match rifle guys use 200-210 ????? 3100 with 155's cases wouldn't last long.
Matt P

Good question Matt. Why do top F/TR guys use 155's? Match rifle is shot over 1200y as well, the terminal V is important, as is transonic stability - not an issue at 1000y for the 155's.

Cases last fine, been doing it for some time, no problems here. People need to choose an advantage for winning, or spend time shoot and worrying about how long their barrel or brass lasts. You will know the cost of competition as much as anyone.

A hint on brass is not using Lapua...

Barry Davies · Post by **Barry Davies** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:02 pm

We have digressed, as usual.
However, Woody I am curious. What powder and load do u use to get 3100 f/s with HBC's -- 30" barrel I presume?

Back to the original question.
How many are really interested in shooting F/TR.
From all that was said on another topic/posts it is apparent that Vic are not going to introduce it, so where are the necessary shooters coming from to make this a viable discipline.
SA -- you are pushing it, how many have you got that are interested?
What about the other states?

Barry

Woody_rod · Post by **Woody_rod** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:05 pm

Barry Davies wrote:We have digressed, as usual.
However, Woody I am curious. What powder and load do u use to get 3100 f/s with HBC's -- 30" barrel I presume?
Barry

Barry, when you enter a comp in F/TR I will tell you

What is the beef with F/TR? I dont get it. The whole ICFRA community shoots this discpline other than Australia. Its as crazy as the NRAA telling international competitors coming to our national queens they can shoot F Open or F std - thats about as out of touch as it gets. This is at the same time as the NRAA telling people how forward thinking they are - reality shows something different.

People can easily shoot within the rules of F std, and still meet the requirements of F/TR - Linda does it every time she shoots. Having no real advantage for heavier projectiles, means there is little to change for people wanting to shoot F/TR here in AU.

If people want to shoot in a national team for F/TR, they will need to compete locally under ICFRA rules for the discpline - there is no other way it can happen. There is no need to have categories for F/TR at competitions, merely that it is recognised so people whom choose to shoot the discpline can do so, and be governed under the SSR's.

Barry Davies · Post by **Barry Davies** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:27 pm

Woody,

You cannot mix FS and F/TR unless of course you restrict F/TR to FS projectiles ( then it's not F/TR is it?) alternatively you allow FS to use F/TR projectiles ( then it's not FS is it?)
People shooting F/TR cannot " be governed under SSR's " as SSR's do not cover F/TR.
So, maybe if you want to introduce F/TR you firstly need to have it recognised under SSR's.

Barry