Neck seating lubrication advice

[fclassNrugby]

Hi All,

I am concerned that my neck tensions are not consistent and interested in finding ways to improve. I use a Redding collar neck sizing die and clean brass with a steel pin tumbler. I do a full clean of the brass again with mentholated spirits to remove all brass bits after deburring and this seems to clean the inside of the neck to a point that it looks "Squeekie" (yes that my new word) and carries added friction on the seating process. My concern is that this seating process is then inconsistent, and a dry lube process with products like "Redding Imperial Dry Neck Lube" may help improve that consistency. Happy for some advice and Disadvantages of dry lube process before seating, like long term "crap" build up in the barrel. Thanks All.

[John Weigel]

Nrugby,

Just a personal observation. When my brass turning is consistent, neck tension issues reduce dramatically. Befote seating, if a loose or tight neck detected when mandrel expansion completes brass prep process is detected, sure enough, when measured, wall thickness is found to be tiny bit thin or thick, and that piece of brass categorized and batched with like-pieces. As Albert posted somewhere, ensuring that post-sizing expander mandrel has to work ‘enough’, a second or even third up and down of press helps - as would seat, remove, seat, remove (dummy round), then seat virgin projectile. Again, personal experience only, I’ve experimented with inner neck lubes and settled on liquified graphite mix Neolube 2 applied with cotton bud, and believe that it does help iron out remaining slight neck tension variation, though this is ‘by feel’, not measured w AMP press. Also fwiw, I have tested effect of varied neck tension on group size, and found it doesn’t make much, if any difference in jam + (eg12 thou) seating, and not really that much more with jump (say 20 thou) loads.

[Lachlan]

Lubing inside your necks is a bandaid. You’re better off trying to find the reason WHY you have inconsistent neck tension. Lube simply won’t magically fix your issue.

I’m a fan of not lubing necks. Not only is it costing you extra money and time, if you have consistent neck wall thickness and reloading practices, your tension shouldn’t be too varied. That being said, slight tension variances might not be your limiting factory towards accuracy. I did a few tests with my AMP Press, shot a batch with exactly the same seating profile, and another batch with the worst outliers. They shot the same, at 900 yards, repeatedly over a few shoots. It’s always worth testing to see if neck tension variance is a rabbit hole worth going down.

[fclassNrugby]

Nrugby,

Just a personal observation. When my brass turning is consistent, neck tension issues reduce dramatically. Befote seating, if a loose or tight neck detected when mandrel expansion completes brass prep process is detected, sure enough, when measured, wall thickness is found to be tiny bit thin or thick, and that piece of brass categorized and batched with like-pieces. As Albert posted somewhere, ensuring that post-sizing expander mandrel has to work ‘enough’, a second or even third up and down of press helps - as would seat, remove, seat, remove (dummy round), then seat virgin projectile. Again, personal experience only, I’ve experimented with inner neck lubes and settled on liquified graphite mix Neolube 2 applied with cotton bud, and believe that it does help iron out remaining slight neck tension variation, though this is ‘by feel’, not measured w AMP press. Also fwiw, I have tested effect of varied neck tension on group size, and found it doesn’t make much, if any difference in jam + (eg12 thou) seating, and not really that much more with jump (say 20 thou) loads.

____

Thanks John,
Any Barrel issues with Neolube 2?

[John Weigel]

No issues I’ve noticed. But that ‘butter-smooth’ seating feel enhanced by annealing is noticeably even sexier with Neolube treatment. I agree with Lachlan that skipping this step will probably not make much difference. But I love that smooth feel just the same!

[JezL]

I had the same issues when I used to clean my brass ... Which I no longer do.

I have found leaving Carbon in the necks provides a slight lubricity ... So I AMP anneal dirty brass, resize and wipe off wax/leftover carbon with a rag ... then it DOES require running a nylon brush in and out 2 times ... since doing this (brushing the necks) my seating force consistancy has dramatically improved. ( Tested using Force Dial indicator / KM arbor press ) ... I feel the AMP annealer leaves some leftover residue / carbon lumps perhaps, and the brush helps smooth this? .... this is just what I have found to work with my routines ... others will obviously find something else that works best for them.

However this is just when using the AMP Annealer on dirty brass ( Do you also Anneal? ) ... But using squeeky clean brass and the amp .. I did need to use a "lube" to help seating force consistency , also the friction with squeeky clean brass on a projectile is very high .. so I used moly coated brush to help this ... however as mentioned, it is a bandaid, and messy ...

[Daveh]

Is there somewhere in AU that sells the Neolube?
I looked for it a while back and could only find US retailers.
Thanks
Dave

[PeteFox]

You can make it, using either moly or graphite in isopropyl alcohol.

Photo shows a grey moly coating after the alcohol has evaporated - home made neo lube

20240513_143504~2.jpg

Pete

[Lithgow]

You can make it, using either moly or graphite in isopropyl alcohol.

Photo shows a grey moly coating after the alcohol has evaporated - home made neo lube
20240513_143504~2.jpg
Pete

How are you applying that Pete?

[PeteFox]

The mixture goes into a dripper bottle, which is shaken periodically.
I then drip the mixture onto a wool solvent mop and push through the neck
A saturated mop will do about 6 case necks and then I re-apply

[Tim L]

The mixture goes into a dripper bottle, which is shaken periodically.
I then drip the mixture onto a wool solvent mop and push through the neck
A saturated mop will do about 6 case necks and then I re-apply

I think I'll stick with just putting it on the bullets.

[fclassNrugby]

You can make it, using either moly or graphite in isopropyl alcohol.

Photo shows a grey moly coating after the alcohol has evaporated - home made neo lube
20240513_143504~2.jpg
Pete

Hi Pete, do you have some quantities to mix and more details on the products for me to make some please? Thanks mate

[PeteFox]

Ok so I just use these dripper bottles available from any cheap as chips type store for a couple of dollars

Screenshot_20240617_112929_Brave.jpg

they have a metal tube for dispensing.
I use standard moly that you would coat bullets with (you could use graphite, but not with mollied bullets as I have had problems with this)
Isopropyl alcohol is available in Bunnings. This evaporates quickly and doesn't leave any residue unlike metho.

I fill the bottle to about 15% (you will need a something to scoop it that will fit inside the bottle neck, otherwise you will have moly everywhere) Top up with alcohol.
Shake periodically with your finger over the hole
Pete

[PeteFox]

The mixture goes into a dripper bottle, which is shaken periodically.
I then drip the mixture onto a wool solvent mop and push through the neck
A saturated mop will do about 6 case necks and then I re-apply

I think I'll stick with just putting it on the bullets.

Yes it's much less hassle, I agree.

I like statistics, because stats tell a story that goes well beyond what anecdotes tell us.

The reason I moly insisde necks is because I use an AMP press. So rather than guessing, I have an actual measurement of the force required to seat a bullet and also the data to detect whether processes in place deliver greater consistency. Cases without mollied necks are not as consistent as those with moly.
I have the seating data from every round I have assembeled since I got the press. I use total "work done" in seating bullets as opposed to peak force as the metric for comparison.
The data says that molying inside case necks brings the 'work done" measurements closer together. My testing says that its is not low neck tension that delivers results, but consistent neck tension. That is, even if the low neck tension is consistent, fired rounds do not deliver as good a results as consistent higher neck tension, and consistency is easier to reproduce at higher tensions.
This is the opposite to what I thought before I started this process.

So I have adjusted neck tension by varying the size of the expanding mandrel to get to where i want to be.
Interestingly, necked up 6.5x284 brass is nowhere near as consistent as straight 284. I am struggling with this.
I sort all my rounds in order of increasing neck tension so that in any 10 shot string, the neck tension is very close from lowest to highest.
Below is the data from loading 300 rounds of 284 win, using the methods I have outlined. It shows very few outliers and when sorted delivers very close neck tension form shot to shot.

Screenshot_20240618_093803_Dropbox.jpg

Shooting is a game of endlessly trying to repeat the same thing, i.e. shooting X's, it's also a game where small changes in inputs deliver undesirable outputs, i.e. not shootng X's. the greater the output precision required, the greater the input precision needed to deliver.
Pete
.

[wsftr]

My testing says that its is not low neck tension that delivers results, but consistent neck tension. That is, even if the low neck tension is consistent, fired rounds do not deliver as good a results as consistent higher neck tension, and consistency is easier to reproduce at higher tensions.
This is the opposite to what I thought before I started this process.

Hi Peter,
This is interesting - a quick questions - do you turn necks? Do you see the fired result in the chronograph or group size or both?
I find it interesting as I have spent hundreds of rounds comparing group size and ES/SD numbers in a .308 with unturned brass and a .306 and .3075 expanders and couldn't pick up anything significant.
Well the mean radius of .3075 was smaller but the standard deviation was still large so nothing statistically relevant to show a difference.
The smallest groups shot were with the .3075 expander

I have found with unturned brass even when expanding with .3075 the tension is tight enough the bullet cannot easily be moved by hand. I suspect turned brass might have a different result.