Barrel "Too Clean"

higginsdj · Post by **higginsdj** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:20 am

So do I take it that too clean a barrel is not a good thing? How clean is too clean and how does one tell if you have gone "too far"?

Cheers

David

Post by **AlanF** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:44 am

Depends

.

Barrels seem to have individual personalities, which change as the barrel ages. And bullet brands, and lines/batches within those brands vary in diameter. Cleaning a barrel can increase bore diameter to greater than optimum for the bullet in use, and in some cases it can take many shots to foul up enough to return to its optimum diameter. There are various degrees of cleaning that are done, some of which leave layers of moly, copper and even carbon in order not to cause too great an increase in bore diameter.

My personal preference is to find a bullet that shoots well within a shot or two after the barrel is completely clean (back to bare metal). That way, you tend to clean more often, but you can be more confident of not getting caught with an over-fouled barrel in the middle of a shoot.

Barrel cleaning is one of the most important things to get right in this game. I think many shooters underrate its importance.

Good shooting.

Alan

Quick · Post by **Quick** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:18 am

I knew stuff all about cleaning a barrel until I got my FO rig and realised how important it was. I clean until I don't see much at the muzzle, maybe only one streak of copper and then just patch out with some barristol to protect the bore. I use boretech eliminator and just use those instructions. Works well. For some reason Butches and Barnes wouldn't work on this 6mm Kreiger I have. Could never got any copper to show on the patch when I knew for sure it was there. I typically clean between every 50-70rds with my 6mm. Took it to 73rds between cleaning this weekend and on the last 10 shots of that 73rds it shot a 60.6 at 600yds so I'm happy with that. At least I know I can go a whole days shooting 3-4 ranges and be fine.

Brad Y · Post by **Brad Y** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:19 am

Benchrest shooters apparently clean after every 5 shot group.

But because we shoot longer range the effects of clean barrels is usually more pronounced. First shots being low at long range is fairly common. Nothing wrong with that as we get 2 sighters. You either need to know where to hold for your first shot if you want it to count or accept it as what it is, and make your adjustments accordingly.

johnk · Post by **johnk** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:03 pm

Brad,

Remember that BR shooters, along with some other disciplines, have unlimited sighters/fouling shots, so they can eliminate the issue relating to shooting some clean barrels. With their 5 shot counting strings in most classes, they don't have as much cleaning to do as some either.

John

bruce moulds · Post by **bruce moulds** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:03 pm

br shooters have the advantage also that they can put down unlimited sighters.
our barrels sometimes won't settle for 4 or 5 shots, and you are not sure how many it will be.
insufficient cleaning can allow the formation of ceramic carbon fouling.
there is a happy median that must be found for every barrel.
our barrels luckily don't require the absolute accuracy of a point blank br gun, but they do require a stable zero.
a stable zero will appear quicker after a serious clean, which is sometimes necessary, with the use of acetone prior to shooting.
people tend to run barrels in according to a formula, which can leave a barrel underdone in this area.
ideally you should clean after 1 until all copper ceases, then after 2 until all copper ceases, then after 3 until all copper ceases, then after 5 until all copper ceases, then clean every 10 to count for several times. at all times all carbon must be kept out during this process as well. all but the 10s to count can take most of a day.
in this day and age of instant gratification, such a process has lost favour,
but the rewards of not total, but improved, quick cleaning, lack of fouling pickup, and quick return to poi are there to be had.
keep safe,
bruce.

Brad Y · Post by **Brad Y** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:37 pm

Ah I thought benchrest you shot sighters first for some reason, then they cleaned and did 5 shot groups. Must admit its not something that Ive done, nor really interested in. Still on average I would have thought their barrels would be cleaner than ours, as we often go through 3-4 ranges a day for OPM's and some dont clean between the saturday and sunday shoots.

Bruce you are one wise chap. We still have to meet one day and discuss gun pimping in further detail.

Razer · Post by **Razer** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:56 pm

I have a FS barrel that was water lining the target when, at 700 rounds, it started to drop the first one low, the second high and the first counting shot becomes a guestimate

It then goes to where it used to be 100 rounds ago and holds exact elevation.
It has no copper, no carbon build up, perfectly clean but, it obviously now needs 3 fouling shots. No idea why as my son shot 100-10 Saturday, in TR, with a barrel that I have cleaned since new and now has a round count of 6000+ :shock:

Never had this problem before so, Quote Bruce:
a stable zero will appear quicker after a serious clean, which is sometimes necessary, with the use of acetone prior to shooting.

So Bruce,

please, 'how' and 'when' do you apply this, and is it Nail varnish remover on a patch :?:

Ray.

bruce moulds · Post by **bruce moulds** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:11 pm

ray,
it is acetone as bought from a hardware shop.
not sure about nail polish remover.
several patches soaked in it through the barrel the morning before shooting then wiped out with several dry patches.
it basically removes anything that can lubricate the bore, thus allowing faster copper pickup.
a milder version of this is to do the same with shellite.
might not be an absolute rule, but is well worth a try.
2nd sighter will be pretty close.
ideally don't store a barrel that has been treated thusly, as it will have no protection from rust.
keep safe,
bruce.

bruce moulds · Post by **bruce moulds** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:13 pm

brad,
see ya at the sara queens.
bring some mates and shoot the long range as well prior to the leadup to make it worth the trip.
keep safe,
bruce.

Razer · Post by **Razer** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:53 pm

Thank you Bruce.
I have tried patches saturated with shellite and then dry patched before shooting. Didn't help.
This after trying different solvents, different oils for storage, then patching out before shooting but, no luck!
Looks like acetone is worth a go.

I have never had a barrel do this in over 50 years, and, all have had my usual cleaning regime.

Quick · Post by **Quick** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:59 pm

I use barristol. Saturate a patch and the dry patch out until I can only see about on the patch and then shoot first sighter and its sweet. One rd to foul now. My barrel has 606rds on it so far.

Aubrey · Post by **Aubrey** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:02 pm

Maybe I have a freakoid barrel, but I hardly clean it all, maybe every few hundred rounds, mainly because I don't know how long it will keep shooting. I shoot TR and it no problem holding V ring at 800m this weekend, the 5's were me...

When I clean I use Froglube solvent and then CLP. Every few months a bit Boretech, but then I have to re-foul it...

I think we over-clean as a rule. It may be better to regulate the copper - keep it consistent and try to get as much carbon out as possible.

JMHO

bruce moulds · Post by **bruce moulds** » Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:53 am

in bill hambly clark's book "centrefire rifle accuracy", he reports this.
all barrels stretch to some degree when subjected to the pressure of firing, and spring back to original dimensions.
after a while, some cease to spring back. he has measured this. this could be a reason why some barrels take more shots to settle down as they get older. they need more fouling, as alan suggests, to come back to an internal dimension that can seal pressure in.
add erosion from shooting and cleaning and the gap between barrel and bullet gets bigger.
if this is the case, it is another reason to chase lower nodes.
keep safe,
bruce.

Brad Y · Post by **Brad Y** » Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:30 am

bruce moulds wrote:brad,
see ya at the sara queens.
bring some mates and shoot the long range as well prior to the leadup to make it worth the trip.
keep safe,
bruce.

Bruce, one year I promise I will get over there. Its a shame WARA and SARA queens are so close. Im committed to WARA this year and next year Im not sure as Tassie will be on, but it will happen. I can feel a road trip in the making!