i look at these post and think gee im only 32 maybe il come back to the sport when im old say 60 then maybe i can answer, im a TR shooter only ive tried the other disciplines and i can only afford one.
cookie
ICFRA F/TR or F std, what are your preferences?
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johnk
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A few points:
ICFRA rules permit acknowledge local safety rules, which in our case includes a 1 kg trigger for TR & FS (F/TR if you like). The Queens just finished applied that safety rule & I expect that they will do so again in 2011.
There seems to be a degree of confusion at all levels about what a world long range championship & Palma teams shoot consists of. In a nutshell, it is a TR only event. F class has its own separate woirld championship that occurs on a different timetable. Perhaps, due to the relatively low teams entry (8 teams, 3 less than in recent Palmas), the NRAA is hoping to attract an international F class division as well to their 2011 nationals, but they certainly won't be welcome in the world LR individuals, if ICFRA rules are applied. That being the case, why would you bother to apply ICFRA rules when that's likely to reduce your domestic contingent - unless you have another last-minute surprise in store for domestic F classers.
Despite the opportunity to use projectiles of any weight, I believe that the preferred weights used at the last F class worlds at Bisley was the 155 & 175 grainers, with the former being quite successful. Most would be challenged shooting 200 grain plus projectiles from an 8¼kg rig over a fiull course of fire. I can shoot my MR rig all day, but it weighs between 11 & 12 kg, depending on what I'm trying to achieve with balance at any given time - & I'm shooting a much more generous 2 MOA bullseye.
The issue isn't the bipod versus front rest anyway. It's what sophistication of bipod you can get away with in an 8¼ kg overall weight rig. Heck, there are enough people still shooting bipods successfully in FO. Our FS rule acknowledged that you can't get a 6½kg target rifle under 8½ kg limit when you fit any variation of the Larkin bipod & a reasonable scope & rail. The ICFRA rules were designed with the Harris bipod in mind - the one they used Stateside until Sinclair came up with their lightweight rigid rigs. Maybe all we need is another good idea - in lightweight bipod design?
ICFRA rules permit acknowledge local safety rules, which in our case includes a 1 kg trigger for TR & FS (F/TR if you like). The Queens just finished applied that safety rule & I expect that they will do so again in 2011.
There seems to be a degree of confusion at all levels about what a world long range championship & Palma teams shoot consists of. In a nutshell, it is a TR only event. F class has its own separate woirld championship that occurs on a different timetable. Perhaps, due to the relatively low teams entry (8 teams, 3 less than in recent Palmas), the NRAA is hoping to attract an international F class division as well to their 2011 nationals, but they certainly won't be welcome in the world LR individuals, if ICFRA rules are applied. That being the case, why would you bother to apply ICFRA rules when that's likely to reduce your domestic contingent - unless you have another last-minute surprise in store for domestic F classers.
Despite the opportunity to use projectiles of any weight, I believe that the preferred weights used at the last F class worlds at Bisley was the 155 & 175 grainers, with the former being quite successful. Most would be challenged shooting 200 grain plus projectiles from an 8¼kg rig over a fiull course of fire. I can shoot my MR rig all day, but it weighs between 11 & 12 kg, depending on what I'm trying to achieve with balance at any given time - & I'm shooting a much more generous 2 MOA bullseye.
The issue isn't the bipod versus front rest anyway. It's what sophistication of bipod you can get away with in an 8¼ kg overall weight rig. Heck, there are enough people still shooting bipods successfully in FO. Our FS rule acknowledged that you can't get a 6½kg target rifle under 8½ kg limit when you fit any variation of the Larkin bipod & a reasonable scope & rail. The ICFRA rules were designed with the Harris bipod in mind - the one they used Stateside until Sinclair came up with their lightweight rigid rigs. Maybe all we need is another good idea - in lightweight bipod design?
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M12LRPV
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bruce moulds
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it would appear that there is quite a bit of interest in ftr.
most of those interested would probably be current fstd shooters, who are probably tooled up for ftr other than barrel twist, which is not a major issue.
why not introduce ftr as an alternative discipline, and see if it sinks or swims?
we will never convince the rest of the world to adopt our rules, so those who want to shoot intl rules should be able to, and it would appear that there are the numbers.
the common target would allow this.
bruce moulds.
most of those interested would probably be current fstd shooters, who are probably tooled up for ftr other than barrel twist, which is not a major issue.
why not introduce ftr as an alternative discipline, and see if it sinks or swims?
we will never convince the rest of the world to adopt our rules, so those who want to shoot intl rules should be able to, and it would appear that there are the numbers.
the common target would allow this.
bruce moulds.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880
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actionclear
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Cookie, thanks for the offer, you will have to start sending that out with a passport.
I intend to purchase my own bipod. Just have to figure out which one.
There was comment above that F Class hasn't sent a team overseas for a number of years. Is this because of our F Std rules?
Linda
.308 Scoped Rifle
Western Australia.
.308 Scoped Rifle
Western Australia.
actionclear wrote::lol: Cookie, thanks for the offer, you will have to start sending that out with a passport.
I intend to purchase my own bipod. Just have to figure out which one.
There was comment above that F Class hasn't sent a team overseas for a number of years. Is this because of our F Std rules?
No just not enough interest.
Matt P
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johnk
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There are a number of issues that make small teams like F class unattractive to participants.
Ammunition is problimatical. You can take preloaded ammunition, which necessitates special approvals & shipping arrangements, all of which aren't inexpensive. The 2006 match rifle team to Britain paid $15 per kilo each way to ship their ammunition, rifles & equipment to Britain, at an average upload of 50 kg ($1500). The alternative for ammo only is arranging for components to be available at the host site & load there, at a premium of needing to cart, buy or borrow enough loading gear to do the job there, as well as the premium to secure a loading site etc. Depending on the country (& even point of entry), you could be charged duties on sporting gear freighted separately, & this may or may not be refunded on exit.
Until recently, when the dollar went through the roof, costs at the destination were quite high. You can expect that costs at a northern hemisphere country will be the same in there currency as it is here in ours. For example, a beer that cost $3 here will cost £3 in Britain, which even on today's exchange rate means $A4.75, but up until last year was $A7. While things are good exchange wise, the US is looking great for us, but maybe we should be purchasing their currency now & sticking it on a debit card - it won't necessarily last.
Facilities can be different from what we're used to. Stateside motels give you a bed, shower & toilet - no snacking facilities & seldom access to food or meals of any type.
Domestic team training costs can be ugly if team members are spread over the country, but can be ameliorated of you can tack the travelling expenses onto events that all the team might be likely to attend, like Queens. Heck, the Queensland FS team for Canberra chose to train at Raglan, as virtually the whole team had the same 6-7 hour drive to get there.
South Africa is a law unto itself, restricting ammo imports to the airline 5kg limit & the alternative is to use local components, particularly powder, as the common ones we use aren't available. Because of that, Aussie F classers gave it a miss when the F class titles were held there.
These issues & others are manageable, but I believe that they require a captain with the vision & dedication to push on regardless, a manager willing to go the hard yards for the team & shooters selected on merit, not just by volunteering & realising that they are on board because they're wanted.
Ammunition is problimatical. You can take preloaded ammunition, which necessitates special approvals & shipping arrangements, all of which aren't inexpensive. The 2006 match rifle team to Britain paid $15 per kilo each way to ship their ammunition, rifles & equipment to Britain, at an average upload of 50 kg ($1500). The alternative for ammo only is arranging for components to be available at the host site & load there, at a premium of needing to cart, buy or borrow enough loading gear to do the job there, as well as the premium to secure a loading site etc. Depending on the country (& even point of entry), you could be charged duties on sporting gear freighted separately, & this may or may not be refunded on exit.
Until recently, when the dollar went through the roof, costs at the destination were quite high. You can expect that costs at a northern hemisphere country will be the same in there currency as it is here in ours. For example, a beer that cost $3 here will cost £3 in Britain, which even on today's exchange rate means $A4.75, but up until last year was $A7. While things are good exchange wise, the US is looking great for us, but maybe we should be purchasing their currency now & sticking it on a debit card - it won't necessarily last.
Facilities can be different from what we're used to. Stateside motels give you a bed, shower & toilet - no snacking facilities & seldom access to food or meals of any type.
Domestic team training costs can be ugly if team members are spread over the country, but can be ameliorated of you can tack the travelling expenses onto events that all the team might be likely to attend, like Queens. Heck, the Queensland FS team for Canberra chose to train at Raglan, as virtually the whole team had the same 6-7 hour drive to get there.
South Africa is a law unto itself, restricting ammo imports to the airline 5kg limit & the alternative is to use local components, particularly powder, as the common ones we use aren't available. Because of that, Aussie F classers gave it a miss when the F class titles were held there.
These issues & others are manageable, but I believe that they require a captain with the vision & dedication to push on regardless, a manager willing to go the hard yards for the team & shooters selected on merit, not just by volunteering & realising that they are on board because they're wanted.
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actionclear
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I would imagine the same problems apply with the Australia Rifle Team.
Nothing that can't be worked around with the right people on the job.
I want to shoot for Australia!
I am only young, and intend to shoot international eventually. If I can't do it as part of a team, I will do it on my own.
Nothing that can't be worked around with the right people on the job.
I want to shoot for Australia!
I am only young, and intend to shoot international eventually. If I can't do it as part of a team, I will do it on my own.
Linda
.308 Scoped Rifle
Western Australia.
.308 Scoped Rifle
Western Australia.
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RDavies
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Linda, pretty much anyone can shoot in the World Championships as an individual, but to shoot in the team, it is as John says, should based on merit, as in recent performances. Even If I dont get accepted into a team, I intend to shoot individualy.
As for the F TR Vs Ozzie F std. One of the reasons why F std is so successfull in Australia is that it is a fairly even playing field, which doesnt guarentee easy wins to those with big budgets (no $1 a shot bullets). To make it even more so, how about if the weight limit was reduced to F TR weights, which will limit the amount of big expensive optics and barrels (or more realisticly, big expensive actions to hand big barrels off)??
How about Bipods only which will reduce the advantage of Benchrest/Tracker style stocks and $1200 joystick rests?
I know there is nothing broken with the current system, but then there was nothing broken with the Model T ford or HQ Holden either. Just wondering if people would prefer slight modifications?
What are your thoughts on this?
As for the F TR Vs Ozzie F std. One of the reasons why F std is so successfull in Australia is that it is a fairly even playing field, which doesnt guarentee easy wins to those with big budgets (no $1 a shot bullets). To make it even more so, how about if the weight limit was reduced to F TR weights, which will limit the amount of big expensive optics and barrels (or more realisticly, big expensive actions to hand big barrels off)??
How about Bipods only which will reduce the advantage of Benchrest/Tracker style stocks and $1200 joystick rests?
I know there is nothing broken with the current system, but then there was nothing broken with the Model T ford or HQ Holden either. Just wondering if people would prefer slight modifications?
What are your thoughts on this?
Last edited by RDavies on Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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AlanF
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actionclear wrote:I would imagine the same problems apply with the Australia Rifle Team.
Nothing that can't be worked around with the right people on the job.
I want to shoot for Australia!
I am only young, and intend to shoot international eventually. If I can't do it as part of a team, I will do it on my own.
Linda,
The next World Championships (FCWC) are in Raton, New Mexico in 2013.
Myself and a few others are planning to shoot F-Open there regardless of whether there is an Australian Team. I've been keen on the idea of a Team at the last two FCWCs, but while quite a few initially said they'd go, as the time drew nearer most pulled out. This time, we're happy just to shoot the individual world championships as Marty Lobert did at Bisley last year. If there's a team, that'll be a bonus, and we'll be available if needed, but aren't counting on it.
Not sure about the chances of a FT/R Team. I know of a few who would be definite starters, but as John says, you'll need a manager and captain with plenty of bottle.
Alan
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