One mile + rifle

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mick l
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One mile + rifle

#1 Postby mick l » Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:06 pm

Gday everyone,

I'm looking at having a riflep built to shoot out to one mile +

What is everyone using and what are the results ?

Two options need to be considered ,
Number one ,8mm and under
Number two , unlimited caliber

Any thoughts on build specs wouldn't go astray either ,

Savage 7mm
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:00 pm

Re: One mile + rifle

#2 Postby Savage 7mm » Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:23 pm

7mm rem mag or 300 win mag would do it and not cost a mint, 338 edge worth a look, 308 possibly, 338 lap and up will bring up cost substantially

Gerard
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Location: Rifle Range QLD

Re: One mile + rifle

#3 Postby Gerard » Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:44 pm

My Armalite will easily cover that distance accurately. 300 Win Mag...and won't break the bank in ammo costs either.
That distance is exactly why I bought the AR30A1 Target rifle and Steiner scope.

My plan was to open a coke can at 1klm and go the Max (Pepsi) at a mile (1.6klm) :) Unfortunately I was unable to find a suitable property in my area where the owner would let me try the mile shot.

The AR Alloy Target stock has a 18" long factory 20MOA rail and I use a 20MOA base Quick release mount for the scope. So 40MOA taper in total. I shot at Captains Mountain out to 1000m and was still on the first iteration of the turret. The Steiner M5Xi 5-25x56 Military scope with MSR reticle offers 26MRadians.
All for sale at the moment.

AlanF
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Location: Maffra, Vic

Re: One mile + rifle

#4 Postby AlanF » Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:07 pm

Mick,

Presumably you want your bullets to be comfortably supersonic at a mile. Going through the transonic and subsonic velocities can badly affect accuracy (although some projectiles are reportedly immune to this). Of the commonly available bullets, 7mm seem to be the most efficient to give you the longest range with the least energy, but if you're allowed a muzzle brake then that isn't a big factor. Looking at the Berger offerings, their 180gn 7mm VLD or Hybrid need a muzzle velocity of about 3030fps to be supersonic at a mile, and their 230gn 30 cal needs 2910fps. So a 7mm SAUM with a 32" barrel should be able to do it, and a 7mm WSM, 7mm Rem Mag, 7mm RUM will do better (in ascending order). Regarding the 30 cals, I'm not as familiar, but on the figures I've seen, the 300 Win Mag may struggle, and you may have to go to a RUM or Weatherby to be supersonic at a mile. Of the standard cartridges available I believe either the 7mm RUM or 30-338 Weatherby would be the best ballistically. However accuracy is another matter.

Hope this helps.

GSells
Posts: 335
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:04 pm

Re: One mile + rifle

#5 Postby GSells » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:19 pm

Hi Mate , .300 Rum at least which I have but you’ll need to shoot in the 230 gr range pill to be super sonic . I’ve only experimented with .208 amax but for Lr hunting out to a km which this cal does exceptionally well ( although the longest hunting shot I’ve done was with a .308) . The .300 Rum is an overgrown.243 win in a .30 cal . If .338 cal restrictions are enforced in some states , then .300 Rum with a 1-10 twist or maybe a tad faster maybe the ticket ?

.338 edge or (.338-.300 Rum ) is a stepup on performance! The hybrid Berger 300 gr hunting with a bc g1 in the .800’s is a beast of a cal ! Has very impressive terminal ballistics and pulling the trigger lets you know your not shooting a 22 lr !! I’ve tried shooting it out to 1.7 km and at a 12” disk . It was flipping hard with the first cold bore shot at 11 o’clock with a milled out range of a sight stick ! Took I think 2.3 sec to arrive and 12.5 mils On the drum with 5 mils from memory of hold over to get it there !!
Was something like 33 m of correction ! The reticle was aiming way above the hill that I was shooting ! Was just crazy!! You really want to know what you are doing and be clear of thought as an acident is a real possibility even on a large property!
My load was 2860 fps in which cases only lasted 3 firings before the primers fell out !! ( don’t worry, this seems to be something I always do with a new cal in that I push it too hard !!)
Careful with stated loads as C.o.a.L and other factors can make pressure of those loads quite dangerous!
But my load is 89 gr of 2225 with a standard Fed lr primer for 2708 fps ave and sd of 5 . The standard lr primer maybe a problem in colder climates?

But shooting at over a mile is a Bloody long way with so many variables !!
So did I hit that 12” disk??
Well no but it was very scared !! We did however fluke hitting a static shot gun clay on the back stop!!
One of the rounds hit a star picket that was holding up the disk and only dented it !! It really was at the end of its energy !

Hopefully in the next week I’ll have another crack at the mile as part of training for NZ !

GSells
Posts: 335
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Re: One mile + rifle

#6 Postby GSells » Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:29 am

If I get a chance over Christmas to have another crack at the mile I’ll post a vid with success or failure and u can see for yourselves how difficult it is when dealing with a number of winds to the target and also dealing with gullies and hills that the round picks up lift or sink as it passes over them . Not to mention the mirage!

See how I go for time ?
Regards Graham.

daj
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Location: Sunshine Coast

Re: One mile + rifle

#7 Postby daj » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:08 am

mick l wrote:.........
What is everyone using and what are the results ?
......


Mick, you don't need heavy artillery to shoot targets at 1 mile and you don't need to be supersonic, but it definitely helps - provided your ammo, rifle, scope and laser etc are up to it.

I push Berger 6.5mm 140 VLDs at a leisurely 2820fps and have had no trouble getting repeat shots on an 18" gong at 1 mile in "no" wind (actually no such thing). In my experience, the 140 VLDs transition to subsonic velocities nicely and so do 139 Scenars. However, if the wind is blowing over a couple of mph, I don't waste my ammo.

Unlike most shooters in this thread, my wind reading skills are not that flash. So much can happen to the bullet over a stretch of 1 mile I find it almost impossible to get repeat rounds on target if there is any wind I can feel or see.

My current procedure: Laser the range, measure atmospherics, enter data into Shooter app for initial windage (incl spin drift) and elevation adjustments, confirm the ballistics on a gong at 1100m, engage the 1 mile gong.

Fire the shot, wait, watch the gong swing, wait, wait, wait, wait, hear the "clang", in what seems like an eternity later. What a buzz!

ShaneG
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Re: One mile + rifle

#8 Postby ShaneG » Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:51 pm

300 Norma - just starting work on one and found a spot yesterday within reasonable distance where I can try 1800 yards.
Bryan Litz talked me into this cartridge 2 years ago and it has taken quite a time to achieve.
230 Berger Hybrids at 3000+ fps and showing early promise for accuracy!

GSells
Posts: 335
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Re: One mile + rifle

#9 Postby GSells » Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:15 pm

daj wrote:
mick l wrote:.........
What is everyone using and what are the results ?
......


Mick, you don't need heavy artillery to shoot targets at 1 mile and you don't need to be supersonic, but it definitely helps - provided your ammo, rifle, scope and laser etc are up to it.

I push Berger 6.5mm 140 VLDs at a leisurely 2820fps and have had no trouble getting repeat shots on an 18" gong at 1 mile in "no" wind (actually no such thing). In my experience, the 140 VLDs transition to subsonic velocities nicely and so do 139 Scenars. However, if the wind is blowing over a couple of mph, I don't waste my ammo.

Unlike most shooters in this thread, my wind reading skills are not that flash. So much can happen to the bullet over a stretch of 1 mile I find it almost impossible to get repeat rounds on target if there is any wind I can feel or see .

My current procedure: Laser the range, measure atmospherics, enter data into Shooter app for initial windage (incl spin drift) and elevation adjustments, confirm the ballistics on a gong at 1100m, engage the 1 mile gong.

Fire the shot, wait, watch the gong swing, wait, wait, wait, wait, hear the "clang", in what seems like an eternity later. What a buzz!

Yes the wind at those distances was a real deal breaker and did some weird things !

Also , I use a Lieka 1600 and it just flashes back at me , saying “ u idiot , that is just way too far !!”
Subsequently I have to do it with a 3 m sight stick and mil rectical . Old school !!

Hangfire
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Location: South Oz.

Re: One mile + rifle

#10 Postby Hangfire » Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:02 pm

If barrel life isn’t a consideration:
6.5mm SAUM and 150g Sierra Match Kings doing 3100fps.
Velocity at 1800yds would be 1250fps with 57.5 moa drop and 9.5 moa deflection in 10mph cross wind.

In comparison:

7mm SAUM and 183g Sierra Match Kings at 3000fps.
Velocity at 1800yds would be 1170fps with 64 moa drop and 10.1 moa deflection in 10mph cross wind.

30 Cal and 230g Hybrids at 3000fps.
Velocity at 1800yds would be 1180fps 63.5 moa drop and 10 moa deflection in 10mph cross wind.

bruce moulds
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Re: One mile + rifle

#11 Postby bruce moulds » Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:51 am

timmy,
all your bullets are transonic, so it comes down to the bullet that can go from supersonic to transonic with the least effect on truth of flight, and the one that can travel transonically with the most stability/accuracy.
if they start to wobble in that zone, they will either steer themselves into a bigger group, or even tumble.
so little is known about bullets in the transonic zone that you really have to shoot them at those ranges and see.
graham,
you are right about transonic bullets doing weird things in the wind .
quartering winds seem to be the worst, and wind shear can make life difficult or unliveable.
verticle is hard to maintain.
bullet shape to suit the velocity, and sufficient spin to offer serious stability are of great importance..
establishing a bullet shape must be done by trial and error, but the stability factor requirement seems to be well over the generally accepted 1.5.
could this be due to spin decay, or the requirement for increased stability going to and in the transonic zone?
aberdeen proving ground established that a 308 military bullet had lost more tha 10% of its spin at 1000 yards.
1 mile, who knows?
billy dixon shot an indian off a horse at a mile with a 50/2.5" sharps, but it was a lucky shot.
the turks at the battle of plevna deliverd withing plunging fire onto the russians with peabody martinis to such and extent that few russians survived their advance.
the british martini henry , ballistically similar to the turkish peabody, could not be relied upon to do anything past 900 yds.
a bullet shape thing - similar ballistics, but one had the magic bullet and one not.
in america today guys shoot at 1 mile, and the good ones are reposted to hold 1 moa of vert.
lead alloy paper patched bullets driven at around 1400 fps at the muzzle and propelled by 100 to 110 gns of black powder.
time of flight is long, and condition can change while in flight.
keep safe,
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880
http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

westernsky
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Joined: Mon May 28, 2012 8:24 pm
Location: toodyay WA

Re: One mile + rifle

#12 Postby westernsky » Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:09 pm

Hi Bruce

If you're looking at getting into it then go on YouTube and check out "Mark and Sam after work".
They're over here in WA and are shooting various cartridges out to beyond 4000m!
It could give you a good idea of what to use. They've got heaps of videos about rifle setup as well.
Certainly interesting viewing anyway!
theres no such thing as too many rifles!

Hangfire
Posts: 118
Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 10:05 am
Location: South Oz.

Re: One mile + rifle

#13 Postby Hangfire » Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:21 pm

bruce moulds wrote:timmy,
all your bullets are transonic, so it comes down to the bullet that can go from supersonic to transonic with the least effect on truth of flight, and the one that can travel transonically with the most stability/accuracy.
if they start to wobble in that zone, they will either steer themselves into a bigger group, or even tumble.
so little is known about bullets in the transonic zone that you really have to shoot them at those ranges and see.

billy dixon shot an indian off a horse at a mile with a 50/2.5" sharps, but it was a lucky shot.

Have done calcs on stability for the 150g 6.5 in a 7.5 twist at 3100fps.
Starting out they have a SG of 1.63
At 1800yds stability is marginal at 1.22 with 8% drop in overall ballistics efficiency.
I would take a punt on them working ok.

That poor Injun’s time must have been up to be whacked with a 473g lump of lead at a mile. Either that or he had a massive coronary attack precisely 5 seconds after Billy yanked the trigger on his Sharps.

daj
Posts: 125
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 8:59 am
Location: Sunshine Coast

Re: One mile + rifle

#14 Postby daj » Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:47 pm

GSells wrote:.......Also , I use a Lieka 1600 and it just flashes back at me , saying “ u idiot , that is just way too far !!”
Subsequently I have to do it with a 3 m sight stick and mil rectical . Old school !!


Graham, I also have a 1600 so I know what you mean. :lol: However, for long range targets with the 1600 it really helps to have a sheet of corflute covered in silver reflective tape set up near the target. We have also used a drone hovering near the target to video record impacts and to give usable gps ranges. At the mile though, we prefer to use a Gunwerks G7 which is good to about 2.5Klm.

bruce moulds
Posts: 2369
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:07 pm

Re: One mile + rifle

#15 Postby bruce moulds » Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:04 pm

timmy,
s.g. 1.22 could be ok if the bullet is inheherntly stable, or not if otherwise.
shooting it will prove one way or another.
the old 168 sierra matchking is a case to boot for bad stability, yet the 190 matchking, longer, was stable in the same twist barrels when the transonic mystery came into play.
the bullet dixon fired was an extremely low b.c. bullet, being short for calibre.
a number of guys had been shooting at a big group of indians for some time before a shot connected.
the indian's name was something like "coyote dung"
wonder if he went "dung" like a bell when he was hit by that big slow bullet?
westernsky,
some of that extreme range shooting is living in hope at best.
there are so many variables that cannot be controlled that futility is a good way to describe it.
at 1 mile there is still a chance to calculate some degree of success, but out past there becomes too hard.
in fact at 2 miles a good black powder 45 cal is probably as effective at making hits on a reasonable target as a modern rifle.
keep safe,
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880

http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM


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