Lothar Walther Barrels.

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SMITHTON
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Lothar Walther Barrels.

#1 Postby SMITHTON » Fri Aug 22, 2014 8:32 am

Does anyone know anyone importing their barrels.

Amac
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Re: Lothar Walther Barrels.

#2 Postby Amac » Fri Aug 22, 2014 8:43 am

Try Rob at Sunshine Coast Gunsmithing. I was there the other day and he was showing me some of these. Apparently they are pretty good and from his comments some of the hardest barrels he's worked with.

Cheers

johnk
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Re: Lothar Walther Barrels.

#3 Postby johnk » Fri Aug 22, 2014 8:47 am

Yep, that's their international reputation. If you don't have a new, sharp reamer, forget them.

One Aussie match rifle shooter brought one back from Bisley in 2006, but made no subsequent claims of excellence or otherwise on it.

KHGS
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Re: Lothar Walther Barrels.

#4 Postby KHGS » Fri Aug 22, 2014 9:03 am

johnk wrote:Yep, that's their international reputation. If you don't have a new, sharp reamer, forget them.

One Aussie match rifle shooter brought one back from Bisley in 2006, but made no subsequent claims of excellence or otherwise on it.


I have not seen any in overseas winners lists!!! They are not hard as such but very tough to work with. I don't feel comfortable with that, if they are tough to ream they will most likely be tough to rifle accurately!! I have fitted a few of them & was not impressed. By all accounts they are very good hunting rifle barrels but do not seem to be "match grade". They had a short run on the American market around 15 years ago. A company named Blackstar marketed them under their banner They never made it in accuracy circles & the company went broke.
Keith H.

SMITHTON
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Re: Lothar Walther Barrels.

#5 Postby SMITHTON » Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:29 am

Thanks for the replies. Special thanks to Keith Hills, who explained the BORE FLAW problem. It is not barrel hardness, hence the Lothar Walther idea. It is steel quality.

aaronraad
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Re: Lothar Walther Barrels.

#6 Postby aaronraad » Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:37 am

It is surmised that the Lothar Walther LW50 barrel steel is 17-4ph. Here is the reference link if you can read past James Johnston's avitar :-o http://forum.snipershide.com/snipers-hide-bolt-action-rifles/9244-lothar-walther-barrels.html.

Based on a recent trial by a local button rifled barrel maker 17-4ph machines nothing like 416R or 4140 for that matter. Just deep hole drilling was something like 3 times that of 4140. This was before it was heat treated, so I'd hate to think how hard it is on tooling for threading and chambering which is done post-heat treatment :!:
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Robert Chombart
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Re: Lothar Walther Barrels.

#7 Postby Robert Chombart » Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:35 pm

aaronraad wrote:It is surmised that the Lothar Walther LW50 barrel steel is 17-4ph. Here is the reference link if you can read past James Johnston's avitar :-o http://forum.snipershide.com/snipers-hide-bolt-action-rifles/9244-lothar-walther-barrels.html.

Based on a recent trial by a local button rifled barrel maker 17-4ph machines nothing like 416R or 4140 for that matter. Just deep hole drilling was something like 3 times that of 4140. This was before it was heat treated, so I'd hate to think how hard it is on tooling for threading and chambering which is done post-heat treatment :!:


Aaron,

17-4 PH is definitely not suited for barrel making and LW does not uses it...

The LW barrels have an excellent reputation in Europe and at Bisley in particular.

They do not interest gunplumbers as they require a little more care and skill than the free machining 416 and mostly last longer…..

Hard on reamers could be only a point if reamers are simple HSS and not HSS+Co.

Hereunder an extract of a document I wrote some time ago on barrel steels.

I point I have no interests in the LM business…

R.G.C


-1°--Starting from the material :
Except one european manufacturer, for corrosion-resistant steel (the term Stainless is inadequate for the 400 series steels), all uses the same alloy, and it is the AISI/ASTM/SAE 416R (Euronorm X12CrS13 or Werkstoff Nr 1.4005).

Barrelmakers may say theirs are ultra-sonic tested, aircraft quality, quality certified….., it remain the same metal, as made by a few plants worldwide. Might be sold eventually under multiple labels and trade names, the physical, chemical and mechanical properties remain exactly those of the same alloy closely defined jn the norms.

This metal is the barrel makers preferred, not for its qualities as barrel steel, but for its machine-ability, as alloyed with sulphur. A blessing for the machinists, but on the detriment of the qualities one should normally expect from a barrel: Quite soft, limited friction capacity, prone to internal hollow corrosion… But it polishes so well and easily that the shine of it attracts at first..

One large (the largest In Europe in terms of target barrels) barrelmaker, Lothar Walther in Germany, uses a different alloy, AISI 420 (EuroNorm X20Cr13 or W/Nr 1.4021), slightly higher in Carbon content (0,20% as to 0;12% of the 416) and in Chromium (13% as to 12% of the 416), but no sulphur addition, and which possess all the properties one could ask for such a purpose. Walther’s primary business is deep bore drilling to the closest tolerances, and they master this process over many decades and 3 generations.
Their ‘savoir-faire” is unique, and they are the only capable of using industrially this alloy. It might well be not too much liked by those who have to machine it afterwards for chambering and threading, but, quality-wise, the result is certainly worth the effort. Does this makes a better shooting barrel? Certainly not, but longer lasting no doubt the answer is ‘yes’….

-The 416, supplied in annealed condition, is about:
Brinell Hardness : 170
Rm: 630MPa
Modulus of Elasticity: 200GPa
Thermal conductivity: 25W/m-k
-While the 420 is:
Brinell Hardness 205
Rm: 725MPa
Modulus of Elasticity: 200GPa.
Thermal conductivity: 25W/m-k

-At least one mill (Crucible) claims having a specific brand of 416 for barrels, but others, at least 2 in USA and 3 in Europe, are offering exactly the same material and under the same alloy specifications and under same supply Q.C and traceability conditions.

The Walther 420 is supplied by Boehler-Udderlohn from Austira under Walther’s specifications.

Just a quick mention here of the CrMo steels used for barrels . The various alloys used are all of higher mechanical and physical properties than the 416, and even to the 420 to a lesser extend.

-A typical brand is:
Brinnell hardness: 225 to 241
Rm: 1000MPa
Modulus of elasticity: 205GPa
Thermal conductivity: 43W/m-K

This alloy is harder than 416, have a lesser friction coefficient and much better thermal conductivity (important). It is however much less favoured despite the above superiorities..
R.G.C.

SMITHTON
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Re: Lothar Walther Barrels.

#8 Postby SMITHTON » Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:59 am

So, why is CM barrels not popular?

lee_enfield223
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Re: Lothar Walther Barrels.

#9 Postby lee_enfield223 » Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:05 pm

Back in 2000 I shot the NSWRA service rifle queens with one of their .224 1/9 twist barrels that I bought from Graeme Spragon at tamworth and won the shoot with no problem(I also won 1999 and 2004), every .224 barrel that I have fitted before and after then has shot perfectly and yes they are slightly harder to ream the chambers on but they don't flex much during firing and so a thinner barrel profile gives great accuracy. I have also used TSE/MAB and his barrel are very good but
I found names like maddco,border,hart, just to name a few shoot better in most cases.

KHGS
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Re: Lothar Walther Barrels.

#10 Postby KHGS » Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:39 pm

lee_enfield223 wrote:Back in 2000 I shot the NSWRA service rifle queens with one of their .224 1/9 twist barrels that I bought from Graeme Spragon at tamworth and won the shoot with no problem(I also won 1999 and 2004), every .224 barrel that I have fitted before and after then has shot perfectly and yes they are slightly harder to ream the chambers on but they don't flex much during firing and so a thinner barrel profile gives great accuracy. I have also used TSE/MAB and his barrel are very good but
I found names like maddco,border,hart, just to name a few shoot better in most cases.


Pretty much what I said in my post!! I have fitted a few & as I said more difficult to work with, but no problem if proper procedure is used.
I do not believe any british rifle team members use them, as I said good hunting rifle barrels.
Keith H.

pjifl
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Re: Lothar Walther Barrels.

#11 Postby pjifl » Sat Apr 30, 2016 1:05 am

lee_enfield223 wrote

and yes they are slightly harder to ream the chambers on but they don't flex much during firing and so a thinner barrel profile gives great accuracy.

It is a very common error to confuse Tensile Strength with Elasticity.

The modulus of Elasticity is essentially the same for 416 and 420 which is to be expected since all steels are almost identical in this respect.
Robert Chombart gave figures earlier in this thread. Look at these or look it up elsewhere if you want.

Harder steels or steels with a higher yield point or tensile strength still have essentially the same elasticity so it is myth that the 420 will flex less.

To up the modulus of elasticity one needs to add a lot of a much denser element like Tungsten or Molybdenum and these become the best High Speed Tool steels although the amount of W or Mo is still not that high. Or go one step further and use Tungsten Carbide.

None of this suggests that, worked correctly, the 420 will not make a fine barrel and it will probably last longer. But I can fully understand why barrel makers prefer 416.

Peter Smith.

Robert Chombart
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Re: Lothar Walther Barrels.

#12 Postby Robert Chombart » Sat Apr 30, 2016 3:30 am

pjifl wrote:lee_enfield223 wrote


But I can fully understand why barrel makers prefer 416.

Peter Smith.


Hello, Peter

Me to....!!
R.G.C
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R.G.C.

lee_enfield223
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Re: Lothar Walther Barrels.

#13 Postby lee_enfield223 » Sat Apr 30, 2016 6:31 pm

I knew someone would pic my post post bits, I am no expert on steels but am only a humble toolmaker/fitter :D oh and I never mentioned elasticity or tensile strength just that they seem to be a bit stiffer but (i guess that's tensile strength)


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