More on Barrel Tuners

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bruce moulds
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Re: More on Barrel Tuners

#61 Postby bruce moulds » Mon May 21, 2018 10:41 am

tony boyers loads and barrels that resist wind deflection?
those point blank guys have certain advantages over long range shooters in terms of sheer accuracy.
these are short bullets and slow twists.
their bullets are so short, and twists so slow, they are running much lower stability than we require.
this minimizes precession and nutation for them, things which to a degree steer bullets away from small group centres, particularly long ones.
if they can just get that bullet to leave the muzzle with a perfect balance of spin for length, thair precession and nutation will be minimized, meaning that the axis of the bore is more on the line of flight meaning a) less deflection by steering and b) max potential and more consistent b.c.
it takes seriously accurate equipment to detect the difference.
shooting at eggs at 300m has revealed that the advantage of the low twist rate 6mm ppc has just become lost at that distance to faster twist 6br with vld bullets and 6.5 and 7mm bullets also vld, due to wind deflection advantages.
keep safe,
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880
http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

bruce moulds
Posts: 2313
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:07 pm

Re: More on Barrel Tuners

#62 Postby bruce moulds » Mon May 21, 2018 12:33 pm

more thoughts on damping.
many feel that a skight taper on the groove diameter, if not both bore and groove, is beneficial to accuracy.
krieger will lap up to a 0.0004 taper into a barrel if requested.
i have often wonderd it a potential benefit of this is that friction removing jacket material reduces the bullet diameter as the bullet travels down the bore, and the taper just maintains a good seal throughout this travel.
0.0004 = 0.0002 per side which is not much.
on the other hand, if tightness does increase, the inertia of the bullet will be pulling the barrel with it, possibly providing a force that can to some degree dampen barrel vibration.
lead bullet shooters sometims lap a slight taper into their barrels, with a definite choke in about the last 4" at the muzzle.
those who do it swear by it, and go so far as to do it before firing a new krieger or lilja barrel.
does the bullet slamming into this choke minimize barrel vibration?
the problem with smokeless jacketed barrels is that they are made to formulated measurements, and our bullets are fixed sizes.
if we lap out a barrel, the bullets will be too loose, whereas cast bullet guys can adjust bullet size to suit.
keep safe,
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880

http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

Gyro
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Location: New Zealand

Re: More on Barrel Tuners

#63 Postby Gyro » Mon May 21, 2018 4:18 pm

bruce moulds wrote:tony boyers loads and barrels that resist wind deflection?
those point blank guys have certain advantages over long range shooters in terms of sheer accuracy.
these are short bullets and slow twists.
their bullets are so short, and twists so slow, they are running much lower stability than we require.
this minimizes precession and nutation for them, things which to a degree steer bullets away from small group centres, particularly long ones.
if they can just get that bullet to leave the muzzle with a perfect balance of spin for length, thair precession and nutation will be minimized, meaning that the axis of the bore is more on the line of flight meaning a) less deflection by steering and b) max potential and more consistent b.c.
it takes seriously accurate equipment to detect the difference.
shooting at eggs at 300m has revealed that the advantage of the low twist rate 6mm ppc has just become lost at that distance to faster twist 6br with vld bullets and 6.5 and 7mm bullets also vld, due to wind deflection advantages.
keep safe,
bruce.


The other thing worth noting Bruce with the Tony Boyer story is he tried multiple barrels in his very diligent search to find the very best ( the 'hummer' even ) barrel he could to take to the big shoots. I suspect the group size differences between the hummer barrels and the rest are small but in BR a match is normally won with a tiny advantage.

So Tony Boyers experience perhaps adds weight to the typical argument from the pro-tuner shooters that ... "the tuner allows the shooter to really fine tune the barrels accuracy" and is maybe the reason why Boyer didn't need a tuner to get that edge because he just tried multiple barrels until he got one that shot "lights out" ? The tuner guys maybe didn't have that luxury ( or perhaps didn't have Boyers massive work ethic ) so a tuner just went on their barrel from the get-go, whether it needed one or not ?

bruce moulds
Posts: 2313
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:07 pm

Re: More on Barrel Tuners

#64 Postby bruce moulds » Mon May 21, 2018 5:40 pm

well gene beggs might be very poor and have no work ethic.
looks like he can't afford a stock at all.
with his big tuner on the end, and the plate an the barrel to rest on the bag as another tuner he is a real cop out artist.
keep safe,
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880

http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

Gyro
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Location: New Zealand

Re: More on Barrel Tuners

#65 Postby Gyro » Mon May 21, 2018 6:23 pm

bruce moulds wrote:well gene beggs might be very poor and have no work ethic.
looks like he can't afford a stock at all.
with his big tuner on the end, and the plate an the barrel to rest on the bag as another tuner he is a real cop out artist.
keep safe,
bruce.


So did Beggs apply just as many resources and effort as Boyer and despite using a tuner he was still behind, in the Point Blank game ?

Me thinks Mr Boyer had lots of tricks up his sleeve and tuning to him I suspect meant tweaking and massaging lots of things with his gun and setup.

wsftr
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Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:58 pm

Re: More on Barrel Tuners

#66 Postby wsftr » Mon May 21, 2018 7:03 pm

Copy from another article
Gene believes that, with an appropriate tuner, you can spend less time fiddling with the load specs (changing your powder charge) and instead “dial in” your sweet spot using the tuner.

Some comments from Tony Boyers book..(on Tuners)
"the belief of most users is its simply another way to tune a rifle. Using a tuner is as effective as changing the seating depth or load.
Hummer barrels. these are barrels that give you 1.5 - 2 hours on the flags in intensity change and still shoot in the ones.
I am more of a cross wind shooter and I do not get great results when shooting head or tailwinds or when shooting in the dead calm. In the calm I seldom get the tiny bugholes that adorn so many loading boxes. this is a choice I have made.....I know there have been times when this choice hurts me, but over time it has been proven to be statistically superior.


Tony focuses a great deal on wind sensitivity and that sensitivity is how he classifies his barrels. When you look at his approach to the game its easy to see a tuner doesn't offer a solution to any problem he has.

bruce moulds
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Re: More on Barrel Tuners

#67 Postby bruce moulds » Mon May 21, 2018 7:54 pm

no one has commented on choked barrels damping nodal activity at the muzzle.
keep safe,
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880

http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

bruce moulds
Posts: 2313
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:07 pm

Re: More on Barrel Tuners

#68 Postby bruce moulds » Tue May 22, 2018 7:32 pm

thinking about choked barrels possibly slightly damping oscillating muzzles might raise the subject of gaintwist doing the same.
say from 1/9 to 1/8.5.
put the 2 together and could this reduce the amplitude of oscillation somewhat, and in doing so produce wider nodes?
an enquiring mind needs greater minds to explain these things.
keep safe,
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880

http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

wsftr
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:58 pm

Re: More on Barrel Tuners

#69 Postby wsftr » Wed May 23, 2018 4:17 pm


RAVEN
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Re: More on Barrel Tuners

#70 Postby RAVEN » Thu May 24, 2018 1:18 am

:-# Jees Bruce you've let the secret outta the bag :-#
:D

bruce moulds
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Re: More on Barrel Tuners

#71 Postby bruce moulds » Thu May 24, 2018 9:17 am

like you say rich, it is all about those 1 percenters.
to take advantage of them you need to think in a catholic whollistic way and include all potentialities.
any way to get those bullets out the muzzle in a more consistent way.
a choked bore will tend to stretch the barrel when the bullet goes down the bore, thus minimizing whip.
however this will change as fouling builds up, and the ammount of resistance to the bullet will decrease as the bore diameter increases with heat.
the 2 might cancel out if you are lucky.
the gaintwist will always be there to offer a consistent ammount of pull.
combine these things with good tuning practice and then tighten it up with a tuner and bob's your uncle.
recent research of tuning methods here and elsewhere showed the stupidity of a recent article on 6mmbr where the guy tuned a 223 and found THE load quite quickly.
how many times have we all done that and thought we have arrived, only to find that we just had our hand on it. :?:
i remember having a load in a new barrel that was the best ever at 600, and thinking it would be dynamite at 300 next week.
at 300 it had the worst vert ever. a compensation problem :!:
keep safe,
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880

http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

Gyro
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Re: More on Barrel Tuners

#72 Postby Gyro » Thu May 24, 2018 3:08 pm

The simple reality for me Bruce is all the above has been flogged to death by numerous shooters over a very long time period and surely if the results were any better than just a Plain-Jane barrel then we'd all know by now ???

We could look elsewhere I suggest .... and there's lots of areas to drill down into !!!!

Anyone reading this thread might be excused for thinking the barrel was the only 'reactive' part of the rifle ?

bruce moulds
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Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:07 pm

Re: More on Barrel Tuners

#73 Postby bruce moulds » Thu May 24, 2018 3:32 pm

:-k ](*,) :roll: so many things and not enough time
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880

http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

bruce moulds
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Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:07 pm

Re: More on Barrel Tuners

#74 Postby bruce moulds » Thu May 24, 2018 4:15 pm

the irony of all this is that an accuracy node might well be on an antinode :!: :shock: :roll: :wink:
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880

http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

Barry Davies
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Re: More on Barrel Tuners

#75 Postby Barry Davies » Thu May 24, 2018 5:12 pm

I always thought that the best point of exit of projectile from the barrel was the antinode. The node is the point of maximum velocity of vibration where small speed variations of the projectile cause the largest elevation spreads.
The antinode being that point where the vibrating barrel changes direction and therefore the point of minimum velocity.
Correct me if I am wrong.
Barry


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