More on Barrel Tuners

Get or give advice on equipment, reloading and other technical issues.

Moderator: Mod

Message
Author
wsftr
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:58 pm

Re: More on Barrel Tuners

#46 Postby wsftr » Sun May 20, 2018 4:05 pm

Gyro wrote:
wsftr wrote:
!Peter! wrote:Thanks Graham, sometimes I do get the feeling that secret squirrel stuff is going on but then again I could be paranoid :D

hee hee - yeah cos they produce magic that will win shoots - if you know the secret formula you will win every time :mrgreen:


All power to you comrade ! If this secret database is real then soon enough the information will be out for all to benefit from. Wouldn't that be a fairly predictable scenario ?


ha ha - there isn't any secret database and there is no magic..me thinks you've miss-interpreted my post. :D
Tuners have been around for a Looooong time now. Its only Fclass that thinks they are something new.
I use a tuner - but I have no idea what harmonic it is changing or if it aligns the moon - I do have an understanding of some advantages of how a tuner can help make the load dev easier and keep it in tune over a wider window of conditions and variances. Because of that I selected one and haven't looked back. Could I have achieved the same without one dunno and don't care - I've got my results on paper which means I'll keep doing what I'm doing. Alas that ain't science so I can't answer a highly technical question....I suspect anyone that could answer that particular question would stay quiet for reasons other than secret squirrel stuff....something to think about there....

Gyro
Posts: 349
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:44 pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: More on Barrel Tuners

#47 Postby Gyro » Sun May 20, 2018 4:27 pm

Nobody surely thinks they're new ? There are many very savvy shooters, from both sides ; the pro-tuner shooters or the waiting-on-more-evidence group who take a keen interest in this topic.

It could truly be possible that in todays world with the hi quality of the various rifle components, plus the bullet quality now available that we have reached a kind of 'critical mass ' such that the time has arrived for more definitive answers about tuners and maybe they can in fact swing the odds in your favour ? Remember a small advantage is all it takes ......

wsftr
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:58 pm

Re: More on Barrel Tuners

#48 Postby wsftr » Sun May 20, 2018 5:08 pm

Gyro wrote:Nobody surely thinks they're new ? There are many very savvy shooters, from both sides ; the pro-tuner shooters or the waiting-on-more-evidence group who take a keen interest in this topic.

It could truly be possible that in todays world with the hi quality of the various rifle components, plus the bullet quality now available that we have reached a kind of 'critical mass ' such that the time has arrived for more definitive answers about tuners and maybe they can in fact swing the odds in your favour ? Remember a small advantage is all it takes ......


Yeah - I find the waiting on more evidence bit is where the sticky bit is. Evidence of what - that they'll make groups smaller - thats countered with good loading practices - everyone is in agreement that a tuner won't make a bad load good
Evidence that they'll help win - well plenty have won titles without them so thats that argument done...
My question back to anyone considering a tuner - whats the problem you are trying to fix - its just a tool.

Gyro
Posts: 349
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:44 pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: More on Barrel Tuners

#49 Postby Gyro » Sun May 20, 2018 5:28 pm

Just the mere fact that Tony Boyer didn't use one might tell us something don't u think ?

As I said, many very savvy shooters have decided not to go with them. Yet.

wsftr
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:58 pm

Re: More on Barrel Tuners

#50 Postby wsftr » Sun May 20, 2018 5:52 pm

Gyro wrote:Just the mere fact that Tony Boyer didn't use one might tell us something don't u think ?

As I said, many very savvy shooters have decided not to go with them. Yet.

To be honest - tells me nothing. :)
It is noted though.
I'll have to go and re read his book - but I believe I am correct when I ask...
Did you know that Tony states that he needs wind to win and that there are certain conditions (calm) he knows he won't win in?
Did you know he categorizes his barrels as shooters in certain conditions?
interesting eh
Last edited by wsftr on Sun May 20, 2018 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Gyro
Posts: 349
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:44 pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: More on Barrel Tuners

#51 Postby Gyro » Sun May 20, 2018 6:02 pm

Yes very interesting.

Ya know the guy who I would really take notice of re the theoretical side of this tuner debate would be Bryan Litz.

wsftr
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:58 pm

Re: More on Barrel Tuners

#52 Postby wsftr » Sun May 20, 2018 6:17 pm

Gyro wrote:Yes very interesting.

Ya know the guy who I would really take notice of re the theoretical side of this tuner debate would be Bryan Litz.


Yeah agreed.
IMO it all comes down to what you need to fix. I'm confident if he assessed tuners from the question of - do they make groups smaller than a well tuned load it would be a no. There is enough out there now to prove that IMO.

PS - I found the bit in the book - Tony looks for the least wind sensitive load and that isn't necessarily the smallest group. he has a specific load assessment process to find that load.
Fclass I assume are looking at tuners as they want to shoot smaller....

Very Very interesting IMO.

Gyro
Posts: 349
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:44 pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: More on Barrel Tuners

#53 Postby Gyro » Sun May 20, 2018 6:45 pm

I agree it's a hugely interesting subject. And very complicated.

wsftr
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:58 pm

Re: More on Barrel Tuners

#54 Postby wsftr » Sun May 20, 2018 6:57 pm

Gyro wrote:I agree it's a hugely interesting subject. And very complicated.

yeah totally - possibly made more complicated than it needs to be.
All the best!

sungazer
Posts: 109
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:58 pm

Re: More on Barrel Tuners

#55 Postby sungazer » Sun May 20, 2018 7:25 pm

It has all been said but you ask this question "Yeah - I find the waiting on more evidence bit is where the sticky bit is. Evidence of what " There are harmonics in many different areas for example in electronics you find them in radio waves and tuning for antennas it is something that can be measured adjusted and remeasured. Harmonics that get onto our power lines caused by all type of devices like computers with switch mode power supplies and a zillion other things but again they can be measured and we have invented passive and active devices that can reduce them. An example for plumbers harmonics occur in water as well turn of a tap and you will get water hammer that is harmonics again pressures in pipes can be detected and devices used to mitigate and reduce the harmonics. So when you ask waiting for what it is really a scientific way of measuring them what effect they have on the projectile and then applying a fix and being able to remeasure them. Unfortunately there are a few people that have a vested interest either trying to push the sales of them or just trying to big note and appear to be a expert they have tried to do the baffle with BS science approach.
This of course does not apply to all and they are obviously being used in the SB game and are well accepted there they are also being used on some of the top shooters rifles that swear by them. I wouldn't argue against the results those people are getting as they are there for all to see. I am waiting to be educated.

Old Trev-39
Posts: 131
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2015 2:07 pm

Re: More on Barrel Tuners

#56 Postby Old Trev-39 » Sun May 20, 2018 8:03 pm

Before I started playing with tuners I found two loads that worked in my 6.5 Rogue. They were 45.6 and 46.8 of 2209 behind 139 Senars. When I decided to try a tuner I decided on the Purdy PRX. system. After making an installing I found that it had a small improvement in groups with both loads. On a whim I decided to try loads between these two, so proceeded to load between the two with increasements of .2 gr. I fired these in 5shot groups over 100m. The results were that there was bugger all difference in group sizes from 45.6 to 46.8.This suggests to me that it has opened a wider window of velocity variation for accuracy, making load development easier. One day I will get around to firing a group or two with mixed loads at a longer range and see how the groups form. I suspect that they will be vertical groups but one does not know till tried.
Cheers,
Trevor.

RDavies
Posts: 1865
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2006 7:23 pm
Location: Singleton NSW

Re: More on Barrel Tuners

#57 Postby RDavies » Sun May 20, 2018 8:11 pm

Gyro wrote:
wsftr wrote:
!Peter! wrote:Thanks Graham, sometimes I do get the feeling that secret squirrel stuff is going on but then again I could be paranoid :D

hee hee - yeah cos they produce magic that will win shoots - if you know the secret formula you will win every time :mrgreen:


All power to you comrade ! If this secret database is real then soon enough the information will be out for all to benefit from. Wouldn't that be a fairly predictable scenario ?

As far as I know there is no F class or tuner section hidden away in the dark web.
I would say the reason why some tuner users on here don't tell all about how and why they work is that they just don't know. The likes of Williada and some others in this thread seem to know much more about harmonics and frequencies etc better than some others in here who are pretty lucky at wind reading.

Old Trev-39
Posts: 131
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2015 2:07 pm

Re: More on Barrel Tuners

#58 Postby Old Trev-39 » Sun May 20, 2018 8:21 pm

I agree with Rod. I do not know how or why they work, but my experience with them is that they do.
On the history of tuners, the earliest I know of is that Bill Calfee a U.S. based rim fire gunsmith started playing with them in the 1980's. H does not call them tuners but muzzle devices, and bases his on barrel vibrations, using the dead spot in the vibrations for all his calculations. It is quite interesting reading his reason behind his method.
Cheers,
Trevor.

!Peter!
Posts: 84
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 6:35 am

Re: More on Barrel Tuners

#59 Postby !Peter! » Mon May 21, 2018 12:23 am

My favourite quote is from the BMW driver's manual where they caution that stability control will not save you if you step way over the limit because "the laws of physics cannot be repealed.*

I spent some time working through the information on the net and rationalising it with physics from texts. Unfortunately, I haven't had the time to do testing to prove if my understanding is correct. I barely have time to shoot local matches.

I'm happy to post my understanding here.

bainp
Posts: 60
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 6:05 pm
Location: Wagga Wagga, Australia

Re: More on Barrel Tuners

#60 Postby bainp » Mon May 21, 2018 9:31 am

Yes please !Peter!. Or if you have had second thoughts can you PM me your understandings.
Cheers - Philip


Return to “Equipment & Technical”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests