More on Barrel Tuners

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GSells
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Re: More on Barrel Tuners

#16 Postby GSells » Fri May 18, 2018 6:40 am

Gyro wrote:And Graham why on earth are you still playing with that 280 when everybody knows that loooong powder column aint gonna work. Dont they ?

Yep terrible, that is , doesn’t work at all ! 8)

Tim N
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Re: More on Barrel Tuners

#17 Postby Tim N » Fri May 18, 2018 8:30 am

Gyro wrote:And Graham why on earth are you still playing with that 280 when everybody knows that loooong powder column aint gonna work. Dont they ?


I'm glad no one mentioned the above to my first 280 AI - it was very accurate at long distance and wasn't a pain to tune.
Possibly just a hummer barrel?
We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training. Archilochos 680-645 BC

GSells
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Re: More on Barrel Tuners

#18 Postby GSells » Fri May 18, 2018 8:40 am

Tim N wrote:
Gyro wrote:And Graham why on earth are you still playing with that 280 when everybody knows that loooong powder column aint gonna work. Dont they ?


I'm glad no one mentioned the above to my first 280 AI - it was very accurate at long distance and wasn't a pain to tune.
Possibly just a hummer barrel?

And that’s it Tim !! Like which came first .... the chicken or the egg!! ? Unless someone is will to give up a good tune and time and money to ware out a barrel testing these theories . No one really knows !!

But for me , I’m happy with what I’ve seen with harmonic Mods .
And really , that’s all that counts at the end of the day . :wink:

sungazer
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Re: More on Barrel Tuners

#19 Postby sungazer » Fri May 18, 2018 9:12 am

wsftr wrote:
sungazer wrote:Has anyone ever taken a barrel to a musician or a music store where they have tuning equipment. If a barrel is struck with a metal striker (think like triangle) it will resonate at a certain frequency. I have no idea how this may fit into the equation of barrel tuning but thinking about it i think it would be a parameter than needs to be known if you are going to be using barrel tuners as they will change this frequency and the really only empirical test that can be done is this as you can directly measure and quantify the result.


Wouldn't you just look at the frequency change on paper?


The inherent natural resonant frequency would not be able to be shown on paper. After being struck it would resonate at a frequency for a period of time greater than when the bullet leaves the barrel. The frequency may or may not change I suspect not just the amplitude vs time. Probably the best tool available to the home tech available for use with firearms would be the barrel pressure indicators.(Strain gauges). The other auditory method like I mentioned that are used in the music industry perhaps a microphone with a spectrum analyzer would be another way.

wsftr
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Re: More on Barrel Tuners

#20 Postby wsftr » Fri May 18, 2018 9:41 am

varmintal has more than enough analysis of tuners.
The thing with tuners - shooters argue about which is better, when the reality a tuner is just another tool to use to get to a desired state, it isn't the only way. It has been disproven that a tuner will produce smaller groups than without. following the 1K BR guys they also have shown on paper that the smallest ES load doesn't necessarily shoot the smallest groups at 1000 yards.
When you select a tool like a tuner you need to understand why you are selecting it for use. If you look at varmintals pages its a pretty constant message that it can ASSIST with tune and help compensate for ES. As a practical outcome shooters have to look at the results.

wsftr
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Re: More on Barrel Tuners

#21 Postby wsftr » Fri May 18, 2018 10:02 am

sungazer wrote:
wsftr wrote:
sungazer wrote:Has anyone ever taken a barrel to a musician or a music store where they have tuning equipment. If a barrel is struck with a metal striker (think like triangle) it will resonate at a certain frequency. I have no idea how this may fit into the equation of barrel tuning but thinking about it i think it would be a parameter than needs to be known if you are going to be using barrel tuners as they will change this frequency and the really only empirical test that can be done is this as you can directly measure and quantify the result.


Wouldn't you just look at the frequency change on paper?


The inherent natural resonant frequency would not be able to be shown on paper. After being struck it would resonate at a frequency for a period of time greater than when the bullet leaves the barrel. The frequency may or may not change I suspect not just the amplitude vs time. Probably the best tool available to the home tech available for use with firearms would be the barrel pressure indicators.(Strain gauges). The other auditory method like I mentioned that are used in the music industry perhaps a microphone with a spectrum analyzer would be another way.


My response was tongue in cheek.
Amplitude of a tuner at a zero setting can be seen on paper.
Personally I question the validity of needing to know the inherent frequency of a barrel that isn't in an action, that isn't in a stock that isn't being gripped tightly or not...
however i can see curious minds wanting to know.

GSells
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Re: More on Barrel Tuners

#22 Postby GSells » Fri May 18, 2018 11:28 am

I suspect that it is a dark art , somewhere up there with chicken bones and reading tea leaves !!
It’s something that I really love experimenting with and I also suspect , That I have no clue what so ever about the subject. But I’m having heaps of fun with it anyway :^o

sungazer
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Re: More on Barrel Tuners

#23 Postby sungazer » Fri May 18, 2018 12:57 pm

If I was doing the tests I would do them for all the states you mentioned
" Personally I question the validity of needing to know the inherent frequency of a barrel that isn't in an action, that isn't in a stock that isn't being gripped tightly or not..."
I would also do so very high speed photography, use strain gauges, as many different approaches as possible to get numbers that can be analyised. I would be doing the same tests with tuners on, off on and set differently.
As other have said until you know what you are trying to fix and then how and why ect.
in a lot of the articles I have read the tests carried out and the conclusion are not really very tightly connected. I would say there is a bit of a jump to the conclusion rather than hard fact that can be reproduced and varied all while concentrating on the movement of the muzzle Vs time.

Gyro
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Re: More on Barrel Tuners

#24 Postby Gyro » Fri May 18, 2018 1:03 pm

Anybody tried the Bob Green Comparator tool ? I notice they were spoken of with glowing praise a few years back but are they now ? Some might think I've gone off topic but i aint !

Gyro
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Location: New Zealand

Re: More on Barrel Tuners

#25 Postby Gyro » Fri May 18, 2018 1:11 pm

sungazer wrote:If I was doing the tests I would do them for all the states you mentioned
" Personally I question the validity of needing to know the inherent frequency of a barrel that isn't in an action, that isn't in a stock that isn't being gripped tightly or not..."
I would also do so very high speed photography, use strain gauges, as many different approaches as possible to get numbers that can be analyised. I would be doing the same tests with tuners on, off on and set differently.
As other have said until you know what you are trying to fix and then how and why ect.
in a lot of the articles I have read the tests carried out and the conclusion are not really very tightly connected. I would say there is a bit of a jump to the conclusion rather than hard fact that can be reproduced and varied all while concentrating on the movement of the muzzle Vs time.


Sungazer its been done to death ! I would think it would be a fascinating field of study.

sungazer
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Re: More on Barrel Tuners

#26 Postby sungazer » Fri May 18, 2018 1:30 pm

I am probably on the same page as you Gyro. Coming from an electronic background and test and measurement equipment I have seen and used devices to both tune electrical Harmonics and remove them with quite a few different techniques. A lot of what I have seen published to date has not used what I would consider good test and measurement equipment.
For me I need to see measurements, not projectile on paper results as they are influenced by too many other factors. Also with all these measurements a complete analysis and calculation of all the measurement errors and an uncertainty calculation to go with it.

!Peter!
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Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 6:35 am

Re: More on Barrel Tuners

#27 Postby !Peter! » Fri May 18, 2018 1:33 pm

I don't think the natural frequency of a barrel has much in common with the barrel behaviour that results in positive compensation. There's a reason that both varmitAl and Geoffrey Kolbe use finite element analysis to model the barrel's behaviour.

Gyro
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Location: New Zealand

Re: More on Barrel Tuners

#28 Postby Gyro » Fri May 18, 2018 3:02 pm

sungazer wrote:I am probably on the same page as you Gyro. Coming from an electronic background and test and measurement equipment I have seen and used devices to both tune electrical Harmonics and remove them with quite a few different techniques. A lot of what I have seen published to date has not used what I would consider good test and measurement equipment.
For me I need to see measurements, not projectile on paper results as they are influenced by too many other factors. Also with all these measurements a complete analysis and calculation of all the measurement errors and an uncertainty calculation to go with it.


Sungazer im pharqued if i know what page im on !!! I know damn well my gun is lacking in precision. I might have won a shoot the other day with it at Trentham but only because it blew some crazy winds and i never had a train wreck. If the winds werent so severe i'd bet Lewis R would have creamed us all.

At that shoot at the 300 yards for example shot number 9 in one detail was a lineburner at 12 oclock. Then shot number 10 drops right out the bottom for a 5 ! Im thinking WTF ?

If i thought a tuner would save me from that level of POOR SHOOTING i would get one tomorrow. But im totally positive there's other stuff going on. Keeps it interesting tho trying to sort through what it is !

Audax
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Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:48 am

Re: More on Barrel Tuners

#29 Postby Audax » Fri May 18, 2018 3:53 pm

:roll:
Bullet sectioned.jpg
Ya reckon a barrel tuner would fix this......a good quality expensive unit.....we will never know if it was a flyer.....
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

wsftr
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Re: More on Barrel Tuners

#30 Postby wsftr » Fri May 18, 2018 5:54 pm

Audax wrote::roll: Bullet sectioned.jpgYa reckon a barrel tuner would fix this......a good quality expensive unit.....we will never know if it was a flyer.....

I hope you weren't weighing those bullets - thats a complete waste of time :wink:


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