tell me about tuners for fclass

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bruce moulds
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Re: tell me about tuners for fclass

#46 Postby bruce moulds » Sat May 12, 2018 8:54 am

as yet, no one has talked about reverse taper barrels.
keep safe,
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880
http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

Gyro
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Location: New Zealand

Re: tell me about tuners for fclass

#47 Postby Gyro » Sat May 12, 2018 8:55 am

At Trentham in Jan one of the Oz shooters clearly didnt read the manual for his tooner as i heard it mentioned as being the reason for a poor longs performance after one range when hed said he had adjusted his Tooner.

Now believe or not i used to be more cynical than i am now about this stuff but i learned a good lesson in 2016 at our Nationals when i developed my FTR rifle load on a hot day. Back then i thought this whole accuracy 'node' thing was just more BS.

So off i went and the gun shot like a dog when i got to Trentham as it was a cold week except for the one hot day at the longs and i outshot all the F Class folk on that one hot day. I didnt know what the fark was rong with my gun until i got home and the penny dropped about a month later after asking various top overseas shooters.

I was obviously on the edge of the node with 2208 and the cold days put the gun "out of tune". Duh. Lesson learnt i.e. temp matters ! So theres maybe one potential problem a tooner could have sorted ? I could have just put my ammo in my pocket though couldnt i ?

Gyro
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Location: New Zealand

Re: tell me about tuners for fclass

#48 Postby Gyro » Sat May 12, 2018 8:57 am

Matt P wrote:Not being rude but do you honestly think someone who has worn out several barrels and used up thousands of components collecting data on which way to adjust his or her methods of keeping barrels in tune via load or tuner is simply going give away their methods on an open forum to be cut to pieces by someone (not pointing the finger at anyone in particular) who doesn't use that particular method (so it's no good and doesn't work) !!!!! Happens on this and other forums all the time.
Regards
Matt Paroz


I was wondering when somebody was gonna put this out. No offense Matt. Regards Rob K

bruce moulds
Posts: 2356
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:07 pm

Re: tell me about tuners for fclass

#49 Postby bruce moulds » Sat May 12, 2018 8:59 am

matt,
that depends on how much that person cares about what other people think :shock: :-" :lol: :lol:
keep safe,
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880

http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

bruce moulds
Posts: 2356
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:07 pm

Re: tell me about tuners for fclass

#50 Postby bruce moulds » Sat May 12, 2018 9:04 am

in the days of creedmoor,shooters had a thermometer and a barometer on the range, and kept plots which included readings from aforementioned, as well as wind, sight settings etc.
keep safe,
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880

http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

bartman007
Posts: 780
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:06 pm
Location: Gippsland

Re: tell me about tuners for fclass

#51 Postby bartman007 » Sat May 12, 2018 9:10 am

Gyro wrote:At Trentham in Jan one of the Oz shooters clearly didnt read the manual for his tooner as i heard it mentioned as being the reason for a poor longs performance after one range when hed said he had adjusted his Tooner.

Now believe or not i used to be more cynical than i am now about this stuff but i learned a good lesson in 2016 at our Nationals when i developed my FTR rifle load on a hot day. Back then i thought this whole accuracy 'node' thing was just more BS.

So off i went and the gun shot like a dog when i got to Trentham as it was a cold week except for the one hot day at the longs and i outshot all the F Class folk on that one hot day. I didnt know what the fark was rong with my gun until i got home and the penny dropped about a month later after asking various top overseas shooters.

I was obviously on the edge of the node with 2208 and the cold days put the gun "out of tune". Duh. Lesson learnt i.e. temp matters ! So theres maybe one potential problem a tooner could have sorted ? I could have just put my ammo in my pocket though couldnt i ?


The way I approach this it to look at the forecast weather temps and up load or down load to suit. E.g if your load dev is done around 25 degrees and you go to Brisbane and shoot in 30 to 35 degrees, then simply reduce your load by 0.2 grains. It works for me. And always take more ammo than you need!
###

Matt P
Posts: 1290
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Re: tell me about tuners for fclass

#52 Postby Matt P » Sat May 12, 2018 9:22 am

Gyro wrote:
Matt P wrote:Not being rude but do you honestly think someone who has worn out several barrels and used up thousands of components collecting data on which way to adjust his or her methods of keeping barrels in tune via load or tuner is simply going give away their methods on an open forum to be cut to pieces by someone (not pointing the finger at anyone in particular) who doesn't use that particular method (so it's no good and doesn't work) !!!!! Happens on this and other forums all the time.
Regards
Matt Paroz


I was wondering when somebody was gonna put this out. No offense Matt. Regards Rob K

None taken.
Matt P

williada
Posts: 720
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:37 am

Re: tell me about tuners for fclass

#53 Postby williada » Sat May 12, 2018 11:14 am

Matt, I understand exactly where you are coming from too. The issue of disclosure is about getting an edge in high performance shooting because that's where the tuner concept belongs when people have shot for a few years and understand reason's for shot dispersion and can make the right judgement to take remedial action. These days, I am reluctant to hand over detailed information on the public forum and reserve instruction for the local level or for a few I know who will put back into the sport as my time is extremely limited. I think also we have have pretty good idea of the science behind the type and use of tuners.

Bruce, seeing you are a good bloke and have an incisive wit, and have a genuine inquiry may I suggest you experiment with a tuner forward of the muzzle, consider its mass, inner tube diameter and length after you have done some load development and examined the compensation profile of the barrel. A few rubbers may not go astray either. We have put this sort of information out many years ago and revived it a few years ago and got canned by the skeptics and in the meantime a few have used the tuners and come away with international titles as a result. Maybe that is the most powerful data for the skeptics who need the sanction of the herd. Sometimes it was like getting on a new tractor and thinking, what's this lever for and driving it through the shed wall. So long as you learn, enjoy and share with a few, the shed wall is a small price for better results at an elite level because you can't change ammo at a moment's notice.

With regards to reverse taper, there is something in that. The best barrel I had with issued ammo capable of shooting 10 centres more than once at long range with iron sights in the late 1970's was that, and written up by the late Bob Nixon on one occasion in the Victorian Sporting Globe but I also lapped a tapered the bore. This concept maybe better suited to rimfire, because its easier to find the right harmonic length unless you use a tuner forward of the muzzle. The taper of course adds thickness to the muzzle and is not so easily distorted if the harmonic length is not optimum. Thicker muzzle is less subject to heat variation as such too. But in modern F class the marginal benefits are limited due to barrel thickness and straight taper more conducive to harmonic tuning. If you are not tuning you are relying upon barrel stiffness and optimal charge weight theory. But the damage can be done at long range where the marginal differences are exposed.

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Matt P
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Re: tell me about tuners for fclass

#54 Postby Matt P » Sat May 12, 2018 12:47 pm

David
I have no issue giving out in-fo, I'm past the secret squirrel BS. The more good advise that's out there, the better it is for the sport, but in this open forum I'm very reluctant as the previous few times I've offered honest hard earned advise, I've been accused of just trying to sell a product or that my advise was biased because I sell it, which is absolute bullshit.
Matt P

Gyro
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Location: New Zealand

Re: tell me about tuners for fclass

#55 Postby Gyro » Sat May 12, 2018 1:07 pm

Matt P wrote:David
I have no issue giving out in-fo, I'm past the secret squirrel BS. The more good advise that's out there, the better it is for the sport, but in this open forum I'm very reluctant as the previous few times I've offered honest hard earned advise, I've been accused of just trying to sell a product or that my advise was biased because I sell it, which is absolute bullshit.
Matt P


Fair call Matt. I remember that post and did feel u got an unneccessary bollicking at the time. Regards Rob Kerridge

Gyro
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Re: tell me about tuners for fclass

#56 Postby Gyro » Sat May 12, 2018 1:11 pm

Now tell me everything u know haha

Mate im only 10 years into this game and ive still got a bloody great pile of more basic boxes to tick off before i may or may not benefit from a tooner !

GSells
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Re: tell me about tuners for fclass

#57 Postby GSells » Sat May 12, 2018 9:53 pm

David thanks for sharing freely as the knowledge I’ve gained has been inspired by your passion for tuning and even via pm helping me via diagrams that must have taken more than a few minutes to put together! I believe this formum and the people in it are the reason why and people’s correct me if I’m wrong ! But the Au FO team is undefeated since Raton ! That’s a awesome feat with over 20-30 people over the years .

Now reverse taper is one step before a mass weight dampener ! Remember Cam Mac was the first one that I know to use one . Julie still shoots her’s with a dampener and after we believe 4000 rounds ( or getting close .284 Shehane ) it still shoots like stink !! From memory Cam’s Rifle top scored and Julie’s 3 Rd at 2013.

He later added Rubber to his mass weight and shot all 9 shots thru the same whole at 300 m at Northarm Opm. That is what inspired me to try orings and mass weight dampeners .

Rob , yes that was my Roomie that touched his tuner at the longs ! I think he was in 4 th spot at the time ! But my highly esteemed team mate whom I have the greatest respect for got that Saum shooting sub 2800 fps loads and it just hammered !!

I shot that rifle on the last Saturday morning when we had a muckaround team shoot when somehow I ran out of left over ammo . I was given his rifle to shoot 600 yds. First shot was an x , next was an x ) 2 on !) Shot 3 x , 4 x, . The wind Stig called rt 6 , the only mistake I made the whole trip, I aimed left Doh ! 5 ! But it was awesome! A credit to him !

All of the Au team at Trentham had tuners and myself orings and or mass weight dampeners and every gun was in tune . At times the wind Stig telling which way to wind our tuners !
So do they work ? Over 4 ranges th Au team beat the kiwis by 41 points and correct me if I’m wrong 27 centres !!!
813A4CF7-B369-4225-A6BA-4F54E8FD3DCC.jpeg


Well it worked for us !
For the poor showing the individuals it was not my gun , it was perfect! Trentham is tough and just don’t take it personally! I saw many top shots wiped out !

Rob , one way to think of a barrel is like a guitar string ! Wind tuner in , speeds up harmonics, wind out slows down harmonics . If I put an oring in the middle of the guitar it will short circuit the harmonics all together!
I’ll let u work out the rest !
Regards Graham.
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williada
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Re: tell me about tuners for fclass

#58 Postby williada » Sat May 12, 2018 11:33 pm

Matt, those who have not taken your advice have not exercised wisdom. Thanks for the comment Plumbs, its a hard road sometimes, Cam was a great man and you were blessed to know him for the man he was and the winning spirit with fair play he fostered in you as a shooter.

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pjifl
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Re: tell me about tuners for fclass

#59 Postby pjifl » Sun May 13, 2018 12:35 am

I used a muzzle weight - well forward - on two 284s. They shot extremely well. The way the weights were attached actually squeezed the bore slightly at the muzzle which may also be beneficial. I believe they did improve accuracy and also improved the recoil characteristics of the rifles. They could have been shifted slightly to experiment with variable tune although I never did this. It never seemed to be needed.

Theory suggests that a simple rigidly fixed muzzle weight should be beneficial.

Two 7mm RSAUMS I have do not seem to need a muzzle weight. They both shoot incredibly well without so I have never bothered.
Both have shot very high - possibly even record - x scores. Trouble was a few were on the wrong target !!!!

A rigidly fixed muzzle weight is not a damper - rather a device to reduce and modify vibration amplitude at the muzzle.

Technically, damping sucks up energy from the vibrating member and reduces subsequent vibration amplitudes. BUT it cannot stop initial vibrations. It needs the initial vibrations so it can absorb energy in the first place then reduces subsequent vibrations.

Because of this I have doubts that any rubber device - which acts as a damper - actually does anything useful before the bullet leaves the barrel.

Now, I know that theory is not necessarily equivalent to what actually happens in the real world. Trouble is that it is notoriously difficult to get repeatable unbiased data to come to any definite conclusion. Coupled with shooters inclinations to copy anything that maybe is connected with success - whether by chance or a real effect.

Peter Smith.

Gyro
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Re: tell me about tuners for fclass

#60 Postby Gyro » Sun May 13, 2018 4:30 am

Re your comments about 'arresting ' vibrations Peter I'm currently playing with a dampening device of approx 500 grams in weight that locks onto the receiver right above the chamber. Very early days but it is calming the guns recoil impulse down a LOT. Its position is helping with countering torque as well, right or wrong ? Time will tell of course !

Now sometimes it feels after some of this forum interchange as if I've somehow "bared my soul ", and perhaps been a bit OTT. Just for the record the last thing I wish to be is disrespectful here. I will ask hard questions though. I have great respect for the top shooters. Matt sure is one of them !

I do like to add bits and stories in here that may help the younger shooters too. To have to work all this stuff out on your own would take forever !! Might be fun though. I better get to work grrrrr. Regards Rob Kerridge.


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