tell me about tuners for fclass

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Wal86
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Re: tell me about tuners for fclass

#61 Postby Wal86 » Sun May 13, 2018 7:19 am

Gsells Quote
Rob , one way to think of a barrel is like a guitar string ! Wind tuner in , speeds up harmonics, wind out slows down harmonics . If I put an oring in the middle of the guitar it will short circuit the harmonics all together!
I’ll let u work out the rest !
Regards Graham.



My logic with rifles that require Orings to get the accuracy required, is that those particular rifles are not setup correctly and have an underlining pressure/ stress points within the setup...
The oring is creating another pressure/stress point and short circuiting/dampening the harmonics before it gets to a really bad one...

Just a thought

Cheers
Last edited by Wal86 on Sun May 13, 2018 8:09 am, edited 3 times in total.

GSells
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Re: tell me about tuners for fclass

#62 Postby GSells » Sun May 13, 2018 7:38 am

williada wrote:Matt, those who have not taken your advice have not exercised wisdom. Thanks for the comment Plumbs, its a hard road sometimes, Cam was a great man and you were blessed to know him for the man he was and the winning spirit with fair play he fostered in you as a shooter.

Cam Mc Ewan.jpg

Nice photo of Cam ! Yes I was lucky to know him! And lucky to still shoot with Julie !

GSells
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Re: tell me about tuners for fclass

#63 Postby GSells » Sun May 13, 2018 7:42 am

D6E24562-CF4D-4091-8E96-62DCCBF65FE0.jpeg

A little of topic but just remembering a Good Man !
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Gyro
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Re: tell me about tuners for fclass

#64 Postby Gyro » Sun May 13, 2018 8:13 am

Wal86 wrote:Gsells Quote
Rob , one way to think of a barrel is like a guitar string ! Wind tuner in , speeds up harmonics, wind out slows down harmonics . If I put an oring in the middle of the guitar it will short circuit the harmonics all together!
I’ll let u work out the rest !
Regards Graham.



My logic with rifles that require Orings to get the accuracy required, is that those particular rifles are not setup correctly and have an underlining pressure/ stress points within the setup...
The oring is creating another pressure/stress point and short circuiting/dampening the harmonics before it gets to a really bad one...

Just a thought

Cheers


So true Wal : take your gun to be worked on/setup by someone who knows enough and cares enough to do it right. DONT hassle them over the cost because it will cost u a bloody sight more if its not right !

I do my own so its right. Its OCD right.

GSells
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Re: tell me about tuners for fclass

#65 Postby GSells » Sun May 13, 2018 12:13 pm

Wal86 wrote:Gsells Quote
Rob , one way to think of a barrel is like a guitar string ! Wind tuner in , speeds up harmonics, wind out slows down harmonics . If I put an oring in the middle of the guitar it will short circuit the harmonics all together!
I’ll let u work out the rest !
Regards Graham.



My logic with rifles that require Orings to get the accuracy required, is that those particular rifles are not setup correctly and have an underlining pressure/ stress points within the setup...
The oring is creating another pressure/stress point and short circuiting/dampening the harmonics before it gets to a really bad one...

Just a thought
Cheers


The orings are doing the opposite. They are reducing the amplitude of the harmonics which in tune reduces the harmonic pulse as it leaves the barrel , hopefully giving good bore to barrel seal.
Bad setup ?? ......Still requires hard work and good gear .
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Wal86
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Re: tell me about tuners for fclass

#66 Postby Wal86 » Sun May 13, 2018 12:23 pm

Gsells,

I think you need to re read my post, and im not sure you understand barrel harmonics as well as you preach...
One must think why you need to dampen/shift/alter the harmonics with orings to begin with.....

Just a thought

cheers
Last edited by Wal86 on Sun May 13, 2018 4:09 pm, edited 3 times in total.

GSells
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Re: tell me about tuners for fclass

#67 Postby GSells » Sun May 13, 2018 12:39 pm

I’ll go back to my original thought .
Waste of time , don’t bother .
I’ve commented a lot more than I should have ! As per usual :lol: .
Regards Graham.

Matt P
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Re: tell me about tuners for fclass

#68 Postby Matt P » Sun May 13, 2018 12:55 pm

pjifl wrote:I used a muzzle weight - well forward - on two 284s. They shot extremely well. The way the weights were attached actually squeezed the bore slightly at the muzzle which may also be beneficial. I believe they did improve accuracy and also improved the recoil characteristics of the rifles. They could have been shifted slightly to experiment with variable tune although I never did this. It never seemed to be needed.

Theory suggests that a simple rigidly fixed muzzle weight should be beneficial.

Two 7mm RSAUMS I have do not seem to need a muzzle weight. They both shoot incredibly well without so I have never bothered.
Both have shot very high - possibly even record - x scores. Trouble was a few were on the wrong target !!!!

A rigidly fixed muzzle weight is not a damper - rather a device to reduce and modify vibration amplitude at the muzzle.

Technically, damping sucks up energy from the vibrating member and reduces subsequent vibration amplitudes. BUT it cannot stop initial vibrations. It needs the initial vibrations so it can absorb energy in the first place then reduces subsequent vibrations.

Because of this I have doubts that any rubber device - which acts as a damper - actually does anything useful before the bullet leaves the barrel.

Now, I know that theory is not necessarily equivalent to what actually happens in the real world. Trouble is that it is notoriously difficult to get repeatable unbiased data to come to any definite conclusion. Coupled with shooters inclinations to copy anything that maybe is connected with success - whether by chance or a real effect.

Peter Smith.

Peter
100% agree regarding proving some of these "theories", one thing that is clear in my experience is any weight fixed or adjustable has the ability to increase the "tune window", some barrels don't require any help and seem to shoot no matter what you feed them, other need a helping hand to get the most out of them. I've done a few different types of "damper style tuners" and they all seem to do job but it could also be adjusting the "headspace", the one between the ears !!!!
Matt P

Gyro
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Re: tell me about tuners for fclass

#69 Postby Gyro » Sun May 13, 2018 4:20 pm

GSells wrote:I’ll go back to my original thought .
Waste of time , don’t bother .
I’ve commented a lot more than I should have ! As per usual :lol: .
Regards Graham.


Crikey Graham !!!
Wal just suggests perhaps the gun has mechanical/setup prahblems. Mechanical problems are actual measureable tangible problems. I would suggest a hell of a lot of guns have mechanical problems !!!

If your gun has not been chambered properly it has a mechanical problem. If your gun is under ANY stress as it is locked down into its bedding it has mechanical problems. If your guns stock suffers from a relatively low "E" value it will have mechanical problems ......

Better to sort out the more obvious tangible variables than try to solve the problem with O-rings and vibration 'theory' surely ?

KHGS
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Re: tell me about tuners for fclass

#70 Postby KHGS » Sun May 13, 2018 5:48 pm

Matt P wrote:
pjifl wrote:I used a muzzle weight - well forward - on two 284s. They shot extremely well. The way the weights were attached actually squeezed the bore slightly at the muzzle which may also be beneficial. I believe they did improve accuracy and also improved the recoil characteristics of the rifles. They could have been shifted slightly to experiment with variable tune although I never did this. It never seemed to be needed.

Theory suggests that a simple rigidly fixed muzzle weight should be beneficial.

Two 7mm RSAUMS I have do not seem to need a muzzle weight. They both shoot incredibly well without so I have never bothered.
Both have shot very high - possibly even record - x scores. Trouble was a few were on the wrong target !!!!

A rigidly fixed muzzle weight is not a damper - rather a device to reduce and modify vibration amplitude at the muzzle.

Technically, damping sucks up energy from the vibrating member and reduces subsequent vibration amplitudes. BUT it cannot stop initial vibrations. It needs the initial vibrations so it can absorb energy in the first place then reduces subsequent vibrations.

Because of this I have doubts that any rubber device - which acts as a damper - actually does anything useful before the bullet leaves the barrel.

Now, I know that theory is not necessarily equivalent to what actually happens in the real world. Trouble is that it is notoriously difficult to get repeatable unbiased data to come to any definite conclusion. Coupled with shooters inclinations to copy anything that maybe is connected with success - whether by chance or a real effect.



Peter Smith.

Peter
100% agree regarding proving some of these "theories", one thing that is clear in my experience is any weight fixed or adjustable has the ability to increase the "tune window", some barrels don't require any help and seem to shoot no matter what you feed them, other need a helping hand to get the most out of them. I've done a few different types of "damper style tuners" and they all seem to do job but it could also be adjusting the "headspace", the one between the ears !!!!
Matt P


Oh yes!!!!!!!! =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>
Keith H.

KHGS
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Re: tell me about tuners for fclass

#71 Postby KHGS » Sun May 13, 2018 5:58 pm

Gyro wrote:
GSells wrote:I’ll go back to my original thought .
Waste of time , don’t bother .
I’ve commented a lot more than I should have ! As per usual :lol: .
Regards Graham.


Crikey Graham !!!
Wal just suggests perhaps the gun has mechanical/setup prahblems. Mechanical problems are actual measureable tangible problems. I would suggest a hell of a lot of guns have mechanical problems !!!

If your gun has not been chambered properly it has a mechanical problem. If your gun is under ANY stress as it is locked down into its bedding it has mechanical problems. If your guns stock suffers from a relatively low "E" value it will have mechanical problems ......

Better to sort out the more obvious tangible variables than try to solve the problem with O-rings and vibration 'theory' surely ?


Now you can see why Matt & myself & maybe others are reluctant to offer advice based on our experiences over many combined years!!! Which confuses me more than a little because I thought that the purpose of this forum was to share knowledge :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? I don't think it is a wise move to "shoot the messenger", surely if the advise offered is unpalatable.........just ignore it!!!!!!
Keith H.

bruce moulds
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Re: tell me about tuners for fclass

#72 Postby bruce moulds » Sun May 13, 2018 6:04 pm

having started this thread , i feel obliged to comment.
it appears that most of the big users aof tuners are incommunicado.
probably because it is not worth wasting words to those who do not understand, which is most of us.
my main gleanig from the thread is that there is no point trying a tuner until you can tune a load to a barrel/ shooting system to very high levels without a tuner, for no other reason than that is the place to start using one.
browning's boss system advertising suggesting you just dial in a b.r. winning load with factory ammo in a hunting rifle is just a load of cobblers.
if it is too good to be true it is too good to be true.
the whole shooting system, including the shooter must be set up perfectly to go further.
you might need to understand compensation tuning and other methods as well.
years agoi developed a technique whereby i did a jump-jam test, and took the best coal to do an audette ladder test at 500.
that got you competitive then, but now things have developed so much more.
doing this on a budget makes the need for efficiency in testing important, as does being time poor.
back to school for me on basic tuning to qualify for the university of tuners.
keep safe,
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880
http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

Gyro
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Re: tell me about tuners for fclass

#73 Postby Gyro » Sun May 13, 2018 6:21 pm

It's all your fault Bruce haha .....been some fun here for me.

Just don't get religious about this stuff !!!

bruce moulds
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Re: tell me about tuners for fclass

#74 Postby bruce moulds » Sun May 13, 2018 6:31 pm

gyro,
there does seem a lot of interest in this subject.
it has made me do a lot of reseach, which included some reading including dave mac and williada on tuning, as well as looking at the different types of tuners.
i realized i don't even know how to tune a rifle how you need to these days.
if i thought a tuner would do it all for me i now realize what i really needed was to get my hand off it.
when i can get rifles going to full potential, then i will try to improve that with a tuner.
no point in building a stone castle on a sandy beach.
can't buy your way to the top.
the tuners that really grab me extend past the muzzle, requiring a new safe and a new gun box.
the last one just clinched it.
keep safe,
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880

http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

Gyro
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Re: tell me about tuners for fclass

#75 Postby Gyro » Sun May 13, 2018 6:41 pm

Truth is Bruce the whole "how to get the gun to shoot" topic is bloody interesting !!!!! U and me and many others pick away at the challenge. Regards.


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