tell me about tuners for fclass

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Julian D
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Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:42 am
Location: Mackay

Re: tell me about tuners for fclass

#31 Postby Julian D » Fri May 11, 2018 2:59 am

I have used the last 2 x 900 scores to show that even though EC shot well on the last day, Rod was only 1 point behind,
if Rod was to market a tuner would everyone buy it, because the world champ uses it ? maybe ....
Matt would be a busy guy ( if he isn't already) trying to keep up.




DCRA 2017 CFRC FCWC - Monday Aggr. 27 Aug 2017 16:12:15

consisting of FCWC IND 900 4 20 @ 900 M
FCWC IND 900 5 20 @ 900 M

F-O COMPETITORS

PRIZE POS. NAME [HPS 200v40] NO. ATTR SCORE

Gold Medal 1. CORTINA,ERIK,TX,USA #347 MMXXO 195v21
Silver Medal 2. SEBOLD,BOB,USA #634 MMXXO 195v19
Bronze Medal 3. DAVIES,ROD,AUSTRALIA #539 MMXXO 194v15
4. PRICE,BARRY,MUNSTER,ON #471 MMXAO 193v18
5. DALEY,JULIAN,AUSTRALIA #352 MMXXO 192v20
6. BIGGS,DANNY,USA #616 MMOXO 192v19
7. CARTER,PETER,AUSTRALIA #544 MMXXO 192v15
8. POHL,ADAM,AUSTRALIA #546 MMXXO 192v14
9. BOUCHER,GUILLAUME,STE-MARGUERITE,QC #320 MMXAO 192v12
10. SANDIE,PAUL,UK #582 MMXXO 192v12
11. MURPHY,JIM,USA #631 MMOXO 192v11
12. COCHRAN,JEFF,TX,USA #342 MMXXO 192v8
13. LOBERT,MARTY,AUSTRALIA #540 MMXXO 191v15
14. NUGENT,TIM,AUSTRALIA #542 MMXXO 191v15
15. ROSENTHAL,ALLAN,AZ,USA #484 MMXXO 191v14
16. CONDIE,BRUCE,KINCARDINE,ON #344 MMXAO 191v13
17. LAZARUS,STEVE,AUSTRALIA #538 MMXXO 191v13
18. THIBAULT,MARC,KAMLOOPS,BC #505 MMXAO 191v12
19. BALOLIA,SHIRAZ,WA,USA #305 MMOXO 191v11
20. HOPKINS,JEFF,IN,USA #396 MMXXO 191v9
21. WALKER,MARK,USA #637 MMXXO 190v17
22. HARP,STEVE,USA #626 MMXXO 190v15
23. FERRARA,BEN,AUSTRALIA #543 MMXXO 190v15
24. BUNYAN,BRETT,AUSTRALIA #547 MMXXO 190v12
25. VAN TONDER,JACO,SOUTH AFRICA #654 MMXXO 190v7
26. LARSEN,PETER,AUSTRALIA #551 MMXXO 189v16
27. THOMPSON,ROBERT,UK #588 MMXXO 189v12
28. MAKSIMOVIC,MIK,UK #573 MMXXO 189v10
29. FALCON,GILBERTO,TX,USA #365 MMXXO 189v10
30. TRAPP,KEITH,VA,USA #509 MMXXO 188v17

I use tuners on my FTR barrels, but not on my open ones.
Like Pete said, everything else needs to be spot on, and then maybe, a tuner can pull you out of the shit if your load goes out of tune during a shoot, they are also good for keeping rain out of the end of the muzzle.

DenisA
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Re: tell me about tuners for fclass

#32 Postby DenisA » Fri May 11, 2018 9:41 am

Gyro wrote:In 2015 when Mark F came over here to shoot at Trentham I was very lucky to be making for him on the score card and sat right beside him with my spotting scope through the main shoot. Obviously I watched every shot. I was shooting FTR then but was soon enough to see how far ahead of anyone here that guy was !

His gun had no tuner and through the 3 days of the Queens comp I remember he fired only 2 'feral ' shots and that was at 1000 yards. He said to me when he got up that he reckoned he probably hadn't set his rests up quite right. I'll bet he knew just how and what to pack into those rests though !! Wished I really knew about that kind of stuff because I suspect it's VERY important.

At the shorts he shot the spotter out numerous times and could always see through his scope right as it happened as the bullet disintegrated the spotter ! I was stoked watching shooting like that.

I can't remember now if there was one of those rubber Limbsaver things jammed on his barrel but when u look on the main NRANZ website and scroll along through the pics a little to the pic of him with his rifle it looks like he had one of them rubber gizmos on his barrel ?

I'm reading with interest here and see a "big league " shooter has jumped in with a tongue-in-cheek remark. Guess he uses one too. I've got the dimensioned drawings for the EC Tuner which is very simple. I would have no problem machining one up. Is that one any good. Guess EC reckons so because didn't he out shoot everybody on the last day at the longs for the FCWC in Canada ?

The skie's the limit for the kind of stuff u can create to try on ya gun ain't it. That's cool. Regards Rob K.


The important thing to take from this experience is "NEVER TRUST THE WOOKIE!" He looks so relaxed and happy go larry when he shoots, always loud, smiling and laughing, not seeming too serious, but don't let the fact that you can see his grundies through all the holes in his shorts, the food and grog stains on his shirt or the food crumbs on his chin deceive you. Its a false sense of security that he leads his victims into, it's all part of his game plan I think.
He may actually be a Transformer, because theres definitely "More than meets the eye"..

Hahahaha. :P

williada
Posts: 706
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:37 am

Re: tell me about tuners for fclass

#33 Postby williada » Fri May 11, 2018 11:59 am

Agree with Peter. Then the only way to learn to use one is to use one. Then the problem becomes the subtleties of mistaking a rifle is out of tune when it is not. The biggest culprit is light. e.g. A fortnight ago at Moe at 900 yards and again last week at 800 yards some shooters had bad elevation and continued to screw their tuners for dismal results. The light was bright then dull. The vertical and horizontal effects of mirage diffraction are effected by light intensity too and the position of the sun in the sky. Aiming in the wrong spot won't do anything for tune. Trigger time involves getting the best shot off, reading the wind, reading the mirage and reading the light intensity because it was possible to get the lot. Looking up past records teaches you, there is just so much to commit to memory it gets lost. I advocate doing your load tuning with a new barrel without a tuner in the first instance then adding a tuner to refine the group patterns or for future subtleties created by air pressure on the day when a load cannot be readily changed or for masters of compensation at different distances. There is so much to learn that experience teaches, that many of the issues are lack of ability to diagnose the problem and then take appropriate action. Then that keeps the conservation going as older shooters pass on the corporate knowledge and bow out. That is the beauty of this sport, you never stop learning.

GSells
Posts: 243
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:04 pm

Re: tell me about tuners for fclass

#34 Postby GSells » Fri May 11, 2018 12:03 pm

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GSells
Posts: 243
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Re: tell me about tuners for fclass

#35 Postby GSells » Fri May 11, 2018 12:18 pm

66C8B0C8-2288-4B9D-AA8D-3553E664881E.jpeg


Then some Neonadathals take it to the extreme !!
Lol , note the orings on the scope as well ! :lol:
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bartman007
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Re: tell me about tuners for fclass

#36 Postby bartman007 » Fri May 11, 2018 12:40 pm

I agree with our experts comments around tuners as compared to not using one.

If you relate Super V count as an indicator to rifle tune, then you will see my recent Super V counts at SA Queens proof of not needing a tuner. I used 2 x 284W rifles, and managed 50 Super V's compared with Tim-49/Rod-48/Brett-46 who were using Tuners and SAUM's.

Again, using a 6.5x47L with No Tuner in the leadup of the Vic Queens, I top scored on the first day with 179.22 Supers vs 179.10. Changing rifles on day 2 for 900 and 1000 yards only proved that my older barrel was no longer up to scratch.

My 6mm BRX currently has shot 180.29, it too has No Tuner and consistently shoots high Super V's.

So in my mind, you don't need a tuner.
Last edited by bartman007 on Mon May 14, 2018 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Quick
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Re: tell me about tuners for fclass

#37 Postby Quick » Fri May 11, 2018 9:40 pm

Yep. Complete rubbish as jasmay said....
Shaun aka 'Quick'
Yanchep, Western Australia

308 Win F/TR & F-S
7mm F-Open Shooter.

Gyro
Posts: 349
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Location: New Zealand

Re: tell me about tuners for fclass

#38 Postby Gyro » Sat May 12, 2018 6:41 am

I reckon one of the prahblems with what an F Class shooter has to deal with compared to the BR shooter is we have to shoot over/thru a range of conditions ? If the BR shooter has unlimited sighters before his string, which he can get away in VERY quick time when the flag drops, then he has the time to better understand through that sighting period whats happening to the group. We do not have that luxury so instead have to decide "on the run", through perhaps constantly changing conditions, whats happening to the group. I think that difference has big implications for tuner adjustments, let alone tuner use ?

Gyro
Posts: 349
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Location: New Zealand

Re: tell me about tuners for fclass

#39 Postby Gyro » Sat May 12, 2018 7:23 am

I would have thought that the tuner 'advocates' would need to at least have made a reasoned connection between when the gun has gone of tune and more importantly WHY the gun has gone out of tune ? If you cant know the WHY then how could u ever build up a knowledge base that would document the patterns as they occur. Obviously it needs to be repeatable knowledge/patterns that would allow u to know each time the problem occurred just how to correct the "out of tune gun" ? With adjustment i presume ?

Or is it just 'art', vs numbers and values ?

Wal86
Posts: 129
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Location: Kilmore, VIC

Re: tell me about tuners for fclass

#40 Postby Wal86 » Sat May 12, 2018 7:32 am

How things go full circle, and guess what it will happen again... Everything mentioned here has been done before...
Soon as someone does extremely well with something everyone gets one.... Because in this game it's to easy to blame gear and not the nut behind the butt...
Stop listen, you can hear them coming.................... BAH BAH BAH BAH (sheep sounds) :lol:

Cheers

Gyro
Posts: 349
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:44 pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: tell me about tuners for fclass

#41 Postby Gyro » Sat May 12, 2018 8:02 am

Wal86 wrote:How things go full circle, and guess what it will happen again... Everything mentioned here has been done before...
Soon as someone does extremely well with something everyone gets one.... Because in this game it's to easy to blame gear and not the nut behind the butt...
Stop listen, you can hear them coming.................... BAH BAH BAH BAH (sheep sounds) :lol:

Cheers


Perfect Wal !!!!

GSells
Posts: 243
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:04 pm

Re: tell me about tuners for fclass

#42 Postby GSells » Sat May 12, 2018 8:14 am

Rob , the theory behind it is not far from tuning an engine to optimum efficiency. Remember our guns are basically an engine . Except we throw our piston at great speeds and never returns . Tuners , orings and mass weight dampeners are all trying to modify the optimum Barrel timing ( Obt ) so the bullet exits the muzzle just before the reflected vibrations come back for its 4 th to 5 th visit . And just before the muzzle whip reaches top dead centre ( positive compensation).

No one said you can’t tune an engine the old fashion way . Eg I finally tuned my 351 cleveland after 18 years in the car . Adjusting top dead centre piston timing with 18 deg static bdc, adjusting jets and fine tuning the 4 corner idle screws . At times I got it real wrong , running so rich it was washing oil out of the right side bank ( not much unlike a bad load !)
I’ve alway had the tune close but finally nailed it for a super tune after lots of trial and error ! That is very similar to a naked barrel , a super tune can be found but usually with a lot of old fashioned hard work !!

Moved to EFI in an engine and one has infinite control over timing , fuel and optimum peak efficiency of tuning an engine .

Barrel harmonic modifiers eg a tuner offer the shooter the tools in his tool box to find that super tune for Obt a lot faster and able to hold that tune in all conditions for longer periods .

I did write a ( Pluuummmmbbbberrrr’s) thesis in SE Qld FB page on the theory behind it last year ! It was for me , involved. If u have access to that page You could read it and pick the guts out of it lol!

Just remember one is trying to get Obt and ocw in a sweet spot , and a tuner or other harmonic barrel modifiers are just aiding and abetting this process. It’s also an insurance policy when stuff can go wrong .

GSells
Posts: 243
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:04 pm

Re: tell me about tuners for fclass

#43 Postby GSells » Sat May 12, 2018 8:22 am

Like Jason M said ! “ total waste of time “

Gyro
Posts: 349
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:44 pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: tell me about tuners for fclass

#44 Postby Gyro » Sat May 12, 2018 8:26 am

I have no arguement with getting the tuner to tweak the best out of the gun and then not touching it. My question is about the tweaks "on the run" and the database of REPEATABLE knowledge used to assist with keeping the gun in tune when it apparently goes out of tune. Does this database exist and is it art or science ?

Matt P
Posts: 1266
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 8:22 pm

Re: tell me about tuners for fclass

#45 Postby Matt P » Sat May 12, 2018 8:52 am

Not being rude but do you honestly think someone who has worn out several barrels and used up thousands of components collecting data on which way to adjust his or her methods of keeping barrels in tune via load or tuner is simply going give away their methods on an open forum to be cut to pieces by someone (not pointing the finger at anyone in particular) who doesn't use that particular method (so it's no good and doesn't work) !!!!! Happens on this and other forums all the time.
Regards
Matt Paroz


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