Alpha munitions brass

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Wal86
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Re: Alpha munitions brass

#16 Postby Wal86 » Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:09 pm

pjifl wrote:
And finally - the 'wankers' are those who think they can build up a world beater using inconsistent cases, not the other way around.

Peter Smith.


Peter you are 100% right mate..

If you want really good brass, and you believe that it's imperative for accuracy like myself, my suggestion is RWS...

This case debate needs to be put in perspective aswell, we are talking about raw accuracy not just being capable of shooting a 60, because they are miles apart IMO..
The other argument is can the driver deliver that accuracy I know I can't, but it doesn't hurt... :lol:

It will be interesting to see what sort of quality Alpha brass produces...

cheers

pjifl
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Re: Alpha munitions brass

#17 Postby pjifl » Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:48 pm

Gyro wrote

Peter. Please define your last sentence ? And has ANYONE ever properly tested case weight variation vs long range accuracy ? If we use Lapua cases we need not bother weighing ? I do and don't weigh them. I'm waiting for that guy Bryan to publish some test results.

Has anyone tested. YES. A group of us in FNQ did a LOT of testing on this and showed that at the very top end of accuracy it does matter. It matters most at the extreme long ranges where one cannot achieve adequate compensation to counter all the V variations which can be successfully done at shorter ranges.

I agree that some of the latter batches of Lapua have been so good that weighing is not needed. In fact, I think, although have no figures to prove this, that this aspect of Lapua brass has actually improved in the last 10 years. Nor do we normally need neck turning for that matter. But these are things that should not be taken for granted - something to check. The last lot of Lapua cases I weighed were so consistent I gave up but will test out other batches. Maybe this Alpha stuff will become de rigour - who knows. But I don't trust US web sites very much. Most of their material is hype to boost the US firearms industry. BTW, I have seen some Lapua cases that were not up to top standard. Years ago I measured quite a few of their standard 308s and case wall thickness consistency left a lot to be desired. In addition to the recent 6.5x55s I have previously mentioned, I also experienced 100 Lapua 6.5x47s recently and they were superb cases. But for a 6.5 I think they are anemic for LR shooting compared to some other 6.5 cartridges.

It may be that Lapua will not be the last word in accurate cases. Things may change - who knows. But as things stand at the moment I am willing to purchase Lapua cases. I have seen a LOT worse cases - some horrible. Again, maybe some of these are now a lot better.

Mt Litz seems to be GOD but I am not sure everything he writes is true gospel. I think the push for smaller flash holes had more to do with being able to run overloads in some marginal cartridges than anything else. This is the sort of thing that seems to appeal to many US shooters and Mr Litz is primarily writing to appeal to US shooters. Maybe they suite PPC cases very well - but these are toys compared to real long range cartridges and I am not at all convinced of advantages of small flash holes in large cases. Experiments with flash hole sizes sound like a good thing but need to be done and the results analysed with a lot of care - and over a lot of shots where other parameters are systematically varied.

If you experience problems with Lapua cases, by all means we all want to know about it. And eventually we all would like objective reports on Alpha Brass.

Peter Smith.

Gyro
Posts: 349
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Re: Alpha munitions brass

#18 Postby Gyro » Sat Apr 14, 2018 5:46 pm

Thanks Peter. But in defence of Mr Litz seems to me he has done a LOT towards attempting to debunk much of the wives tales and folklore that are sooooo prevalent in this sport ! Even if it's not all 'gospel' at least it gets you thinking ?

bruce moulds
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Re: Alpha munitions brass

#19 Postby bruce moulds » Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:31 pm

gyro,
and it saves a lot of people having to think as well.
ewhat we need is litz and shiraz running and promoting the nraa!
keep safe,
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880
http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

lonerider43
Posts: 205
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2016 6:55 pm

Re: Alpha munitions brass

#20 Postby lonerider43 » Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:03 pm

bruce moulds wrote:gyro,
it saves a lot of people having to think as well.
keep safe,
bruce.

and imho lies the problem with shooting these days.
Last edited by lonerider43 on Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Malcolm Hill
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Location: Mid North S.A.

Re: Alpha munitions brass

#21 Postby Malcolm Hill » Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:28 am

Hi Bruce. This subject of case weight variation really amuses me with the way people think it is so important to consistent accuracy. I don't think it matters a hoot. It is internal case capacity that is the important issue, not case weight. I'd be quite happy to make people think they had perfect cases. Just send me your cases, I'll weigh them all and pick the lightest one, then turn enough metal out of the extractor grooves of the others to make them all the same weight. No need to buy Lapua or any other brand name case. Regards Malcolm.

bruce moulds
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Re: Alpha munitions brass

#22 Postby bruce moulds » Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:11 am

absolutely malcolm.
then there are those who think you can measure case capacity accurately.
i once did a test whereby any case that had a vert shot was marked.
next firing of that lot of cases, the marked ones often were in the vert group, and others produced bad vert.
lucky they did not get chucked out!
keep safe,
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880

http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

Gyro
Posts: 349
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Location: New Zealand

Re: Alpha munitions brass

#23 Postby Gyro » Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:12 am

Exactly Malcolm. Where's the published results of a PROPER test ? Litz is getting a bit of a bollocking here, when he's someone who has done a lot to wake people up from clinging to folklore and myths ?

I could do a test myself as I believe I've got a gun accurate enough to generate worthwhile data but haven't bothered yet as I'm certain in my mind there are lots more important things to worry about. But I've absolutely not ruled out weighing and batching cases. I just need it proven to me to be worthwhile. I could do it with the feeling "it can't hurt".

bruce moulds
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Re: Alpha munitions brass

#24 Postby bruce moulds » Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:28 am

well it sure as hell is not going to make it worse.
there are so many variables.
even if it were possible to measure the case capacity of obturated cases, that capacity could well come about from different reasons.
keep safe,
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880

http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

Malcolm Hill
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Location: Mid North S.A.

Re: Alpha munitions brass

#25 Postby Malcolm Hill » Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:33 pm

Fireform in rifle, trim to length, plug primer pocket, fill to top with old ball powder and weigh. Sort cases as to internal capacity. It is internal capacity that determines the chamber pressure in a given barrel as well as the pressure curve upon ignition. Primer briscance can be a variable(but one we have absolutely no control over) as can be the neck tension which with careful reloading practices can be reduced as a variable. As said before case weight doesn't matter a hoot. I can make your Hung Chong Foo special issue cases all weigh the same without changing their internal volume measurements or ballistics one iota. Regards Malcolm.

bruce moulds
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Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:07 pm

Re: Alpha munitions brass

#26 Postby bruce moulds » Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:53 pm

malcolm,
you have 2 variables that are hard to control.
firstly will all the cases fireform equally?
they ideally will fill the chamber the same, but if brass hardness varies at all, clearance between case and chamber could vary after springback.
the second is filling the cases with powder.
experience with droptubing has demonstrated how hard it is to fill a case to the same level each time with the same ammount of powder.
just pouring it is even worse.
and these ammounts can vary in grains.
possibly a mechanical droptube system might be more consistent.
this is a tough one!
keep safe,
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880

http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

Malcolm Hill
Posts: 251
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:40 pm
Location: Mid North S.A.

Re: Alpha munitions brass

#27 Postby Malcolm Hill » Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:12 pm

Hi Bruce. I know there are variables with filling and weighing case capacity as well as how well cases conform to chamber dimensions after fireforming but I still give way more credence to sorting cases by that method than on weight alone. Like I said you could give me a thousand cases of different brands and I could remove metal from areas that don't matter and make them all weigh exactly the same. That according to the majority would make a very consistent batch. Regards Malcolm.

bruce moulds
Posts: 2401
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:07 pm

Re: Alpha munitions brass

#28 Postby bruce moulds » Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:47 pm

yes malcolm you make a good point.
thinking (dangerous) came up with this.
would fireforming, followed by pushing the case into a fls die then filling with powder offer a potentially more consistent case outside dimension?
then the only thing to vary would be the internal dimension, hence case capacity.
it would be a pain in the azz doing it.
then all you need to do is pour the powder to the same density.
one method to pack a fair bit in evenly is to hold the case in contact with a vibratory case tumbler as you fill it slowly and similarly, in this case in the die.
keep safe,
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880

http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

Malcolm Hill
Posts: 251
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:40 pm
Location: Mid North S.A.

Re: Alpha munitions brass

#29 Postby Malcolm Hill » Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:11 pm

Hi Bruce. Maybe putting into a FLS die might be ok , but I just had a brilliant thought (couple of reds on a cruisey Sunday night). If we all went back to using muzzle loaders problem solved- absolutely zero case variation shot to shot. Problem solved and would save a shitload on cases as well. Regards Malcolm.

BATattack
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Re: Alpha munitions brass

#30 Postby BATattack » Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:27 pm

Gyro. Short answer is yes. As with everything there is a point of diminishing returns but for me good brass and a good barrel are the platform to build accuracy on.

In a multi day event a few 1% improvements combined usually determine the pointy end.


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