NECK SIZING

Get or give advice on equipment, reloading and other technical issues.

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pjifl
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Re: NECK SIZING

#16 Postby pjifl » Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:49 pm

One possible factor that can make nice fitting cases vary in feel when feeding them loaded into a rifle is the depth of a primer insertion.
If you are running very neat fitting cases, just a minute difference in primer insertion can make a big difference to feel when shooting.

This can be checked by holding a straightedge over the base. I doubt that a primer protruding 1 thou is an accuracy problem but it will change the feel when loading if you are sizing to perfect chamber size. Unifying primer pockets on some batches of new brass to address this problem is worthwhile but often not needed. And a better priming tool helps if the primers are very tight.

I believe that FL sizing every time is the way to go but you need a sizing die often made specially. Usual commercial ones are too severe for best results.
If some of the harder rounds to chamber have been used with higher pressures it is likely that there is an expanded area just above the case base. This can be hard to bring down again. Do some measurements with a good micrometer comparing. About 1/4 inch above the extraction groove is a good place to measure. Also measure the base width with a micrometer and compare.
If this is where your problem lies, you may be better off with new cases.

Peter Smith.

KHGS
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Re: NECK SIZING

#17 Postby KHGS » Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:37 pm

pjifl wrote:One possible factor that can make nice fitting cases vary in feel when feeding them loaded into a rifle is the depth of a primer insertion.
If you are running very neat fitting cases, just a minute difference in primer insertion can make a big difference to feel when shooting.

This can be checked by holding a straightedge over the base. I doubt that a primer protruding 1 thou is an accuracy problem but it will change the feel when loading if you are sizing to perfect chamber size. Unifying primer pockets on some batches of new brass to address this problem is worthwhile but often not needed. And a better priming tool helps if the primers are very tight.

I believe that FL sizing every time is the way to go but you need a sizing die often made specially. Usual commercial ones are too severe for best results.
If some of the harder rounds to chamber have been used with higher pressures it is likely that there is an expanded area just above the case base. This can be hard to bring down again. Do some measurements with a good micrometer comparing. About 1/4 inch above the extraction groove is a good place to measure. Also measure the base width with a micrometer and compare.
If this is where your problem lies, you may be better off with new cases.

Peter Smith.


Peter is quite correct in his post above. I would like however to add a couple of points,
1) Redding body dies usually size a little less than a FLS die.
2) Any tight cases after being run through the body die will require a pass through a FLS die or even a small base die.
3) There is NO substitute for a GOOD primer seating tool, the minimum in my opinion being a Sinclair or equivalent. The primer must be FELT to the bottom of the cup NOT forced. Primer pockets can be too tight to seat the primer in correctly, primer seating is an area that I am particular about & has a lot to do with accuracy through low extreme velocity spreads.

bruce moulds
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Re: NECK SIZING

#18 Postby bruce moulds » Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:38 pm

fl sizing every shot is a good thing.
it gives mechanical reliability to a shooting system which is the second most important thing in the chain behind safety, and the third being accuracy.
the disadvantage is that brass can get worked too much, causing case head seperations, and slightly reduceing accuracy potential of the system.
the way to overcome this issue can easily be solved in one of 2 ways.
you can either polish out the fls die to minimally size the brass, or buy a fls die, size some brass with it and measure it, then order a reamer to cut a chamber 0.001" bigger than the sized case.
benchrest shooters are now starting to fls, so for our job you could not tell the difference.
of course the die must size the case straight, but then even redding fls bushing dies can give up to 0.004" runout to sized brass.
don't get you backyard gunsmith doing this work.
keep safe,
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880
http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

twotwothree
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Re: NECK SIZING

#19 Postby twotwothree » Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:10 am

pjifl wrote:One possible factor that can make nice fitting cases vary in feel when feeding them loaded into a rifle is the depth of a primer insertion.
If you are running very neat fitting cases, just a minute difference in primer insertion can make a big difference to feel when shooting.

This can be checked by holding a straightedge over the base. I doubt that a primer protruding 1 thou is an accuracy problem but it will change the feel when loading if you are sizing to perfect chamber size. Unifying primer pockets on some batches of new brass to address this problem is worthwhile but often not needed. And a better priming tool helps if the primers are very tight.

I believe that FL sizing every time is the way to go but you need a sizing die often made specially. Usual commercial ones are too severe for best results.
If some of the harder rounds to chamber have been used with higher pressures it is likely that there is an expanded area just above the case base. This can be hard to bring down again. Do some measurements with a good micrometer comparing. About 1/4 inch above the extraction groove is a good place to measure. Also measure the base width with a micrometer and compare.
If this is where your problem lies, you may be better off with new cases.

Peter Smith.

Thanks Peter, I have gone through the brass and found brass with a ring type mark towards the base of the case. These cases measure 1 tho larger than other cases with out the mark. I have been using 37.3 gr of 2208 using 130 bergers for 2900fps (30in barrel) which doesnt seem to excessive compared to a mates rifle which shard the same reamer. I will be getting a f/l die and see how it works.

Gyro
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Re: NECK SIZING

#20 Postby Gyro » Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:37 am


KHGS
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Re: NECK SIZING

#21 Postby KHGS » Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:13 pm

Gyro wrote:http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/case-head-separation-cause-diagnosis/



This is the result of incorrectly set up dies, not the result of sizing alone. Any tool is only as good as the user.
Keith H. =D>

Gyro
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Re: NECK SIZING

#22 Postby Gyro » Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:06 pm

KHGS wrote:
Gyro wrote:http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/case-head-separation-cause-diagnosis/



This is the result of incorrectly set up dies, not the result of sizing alone. Any tool is only as good as the user.
Keith H. =D>


Yes Kieth - elementary - but unfortunately many don't get this right !!

I always tell newer guys who are having issues to get a "Redding Competition Shell Holder" set. I'm not sure how many bother listening. As with lots of this stuff, there's actually a bloody lot to learn and PROPERLY understand. Some mistakes aren't life threatening but some can be ( as u know ) but it's mostly about doing the reloading steps correctly so you can have a 'mechanically reliable' shooting package. That's HUGELY important to good shooting.

It's perhaps worth mentioning here too - for the guys who aren't running a custom action - that it's normally easier to get on top of this stuff when you are using a Custom Bolt Action. This is purely because the greater precision of the Custom re the much tighter bolt-in-raceway clearances gives a much more accurate and precise bolt lock up. This makes it easier to feel what's going on when you chamber a case .....

Wal86
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Re: NECK SIZING

#23 Postby Wal86 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:05 pm

KHGS wrote:
Gyro wrote:http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/case-head-separation-cause-diagnosis/



This is the result of incorrectly set up dies, not the result of sizing alone. Any tool is only as good as the user.
Keith H. =D>


Very true :lol:

twotwothree,

Some of these problems start from incorrect fireforming of brass, once you have a high spot just above webbing, you can't get it back.. (brass/primer pocket life will be effected by this.)

Dies then compound the problem, and size the high side of the case greater, which over works brass and causes a fracture/case separation.

Alan

michaeljp65
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Re: NECK SIZING

#24 Postby michaeljp65 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:41 pm

How many times have you fired your brass? A FL bushing die is the way to go. And you removed the ejector pin? If you don't have a headspace gauge your just guessing as to how much bump your giving. The bolt feel method does not always work. I tried it once and way way over bumped the shoulder on that piece of brass. The bolt feel method is very good for finding the lands when seating projectiles.

Wal86
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Re: NECK SIZING

#25 Postby Wal86 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:55 pm

michaeljp65 wrote:How many times have you fired your brass? A FL bushing die is the way to go. And you removed the ejector pin? If you don't have a headspace gauge your just guessing as to how much bump your giving. The bolt feel method does not always work. I tried it once and way way over bumped the shoulder on that piece of brass. The bolt feel method is very good for finding the lands when seating projectiles.


Micheal,

Your drama with bolt feel method maybe that your doing it incorrectly, you must remove the firing pin assembly aswell,

Cheers

Alan

michaeljp65
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Re: NECK SIZING

#26 Postby michaeljp65 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:58 pm

I did Wal, firing pin and ejector pin. Didnt like that method. But i do use it for finding the lands with new projectiles.

Wal86
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Re: NECK SIZING

#27 Postby Wal86 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:06 pm

michaeljp65 wrote:I did Wal, firing pin and ejector pin. Didnt like that method. But i do use it for finding the lands with new projectiles.


Oh well, if everyone did the same thing it would be boring!!!!! :oops:

michaeljp65
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Re: NECK SIZING

#28 Postby michaeljp65 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:33 pm

lol, so true mate

twotwothree
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Re: NECK SIZING

#29 Postby twotwothree » Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:08 pm

Wal86 wrote:
michaeljp65 wrote:How many times have you fired your brass? A FL bushing die is the way to go. And you removed the ejector pin? If you don't have a headspace gauge your just guessing as to how much bump your giving. The bolt feel method does not always work. I tried it once and way way over bumped the shoulder on that piece of brass. The bolt feel method is very good for finding the lands when seating projectiles.


Micheal,

Your drama with bolt feel method maybe that your doing it incorrectly, you must remove the firing pin assembly aswell,

Cheers

Alan

The brass now is 2nd fired. Shoots really good new brass loads(36g 2208 using 140pills) with no pressure sighns, gets neck sized than reloaded thats when i have problems. I also did loads starting at 36g going up by .2 to 38.6 using 130 bergers with no pressure signs. I picked a node at 37.3 reloaded and fired 5 shot. The bolt was hard to lift and had extractor marks on the cases and a mark 6mm up from the bottom of the case all the way round. From what ive read i thought these loads were pretty low but maybe not. I am beginning to think I may have rifle problems as adjusting the die seems to make no difference.

michaeljp65
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Re: NECK SIZING

#30 Postby michaeljp65 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:20 pm

What sort of rifle is it? Tikka 243 or 308 or similar? I don't think its rifle related, seldom is if reloading yourself. In regards to the ring around the case head. Get a paper clip and straighten it out with a small hook at one end. Run this hook down the side of the case till you hit the bottom. If you do not feel anything near that mark around the bottom, don't worry about the marks. I have some cases now that have a ring around the base and I'm not at all worried, it may have come from the die.
Hard to lift bolt and hard to extract It sounds like you are not setting the headspace correctly. You need a headspace gauge a set of verniers to measure your fired case headspace and set your sizing die to match, and a good quality FL/bushing die. Once you have these tools it will all seem very easy to get right.


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