Several primers not showing much pin strike

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Steve N
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Re: Several primers not showing much pin strike

#16 Postby Steve N » Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:53 am

Gyro wrote: I would hve thought the headspace would need to be miles out to cause misfires on a well operating firing pin ?


I had a missfire a couple of weeks ago with a BR2 in a 284 case. Dismantled the round and the primer went off when hit with a hammer so was probably okay. I had somehow set the headspace on that case back 8 thou compared to a fired round. Other resized cases were only 2 thou back and no problem s so it doesn't take that much.

Wal86
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Re: Several primers not showing much pin strike

#17 Postby Wal86 » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:14 am

Steve

This is 100% correct. You only need to have .003" to .004" headspace and you could potentially have dramas with primer ignition...
A common fix for primer failures seems to be put a federal primer in problem solved.. fact is they are softer in the cup compared to cci, therefore firing pin still contacts hard enough to make the federal ignite..

Cheers

Alan

Wal86
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Re: Several primers not showing much pin strike

#18 Postby Wal86 » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:39 am

I might regret asking this question, but here goes...
Quick question? how does everyone who has been having troubles with primer failures measure their cases headspace after bumping/FL sizing of brass? And or if they even check it?

Cheers

Alan

6.5x55ai
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Re: Several primers not showing much pin strike

#19 Postby 6.5x55ai » Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:42 am

I have gauges for every type of calibre I reload for. They measure from the datum point on the shoulder to the cartridge base. Hornady and Sinclair make suitable gauges. Without gauges you are flying blind and just sucking it and seeing and will inevitably over size some brass.

However the ultimate test is to try them in your chamber - I am anal I try every case. Remember to still very lightly lube the locking lugs as galling could occur.

Take the striker and main spring out of the bolt so there is no spring tension affecting the "feel". Camber the case. With my Barnards I like to have a tiny smidgen of resistance just as the bolt closes fully down - al la Tony Boyer. Others may prefer no resistance.

Incidentally over the last 27 years I have only ever had one cartridge fail to go bang. That was a load of W760 ball powder and a CCI BR primer.
And further still, b4 I sorted out my priming technique and purchased a better priming tool, some of my primers were seated (crushed?) 10 thou below face, and I never had a misfire.

Gyro
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Re: Several primers not showing much pin strike

#20 Postby Gyro » Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:46 am

Cycling all your comp ammo in the chamber first is what ya do !

Gyro
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Re: Several primers not showing much pin strike

#21 Postby Gyro » Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:05 am

Seriously lads don't ya need to be anal about ALL this stuff ? Watch the top shooters on the mound ...... bet you won't see them wrestling with the dramas that get created by all the above !

pjifl
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Re: Several primers not showing much pin strike

#22 Postby pjifl » Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:35 pm

About two years ago I had a strange experience with some primers not going off. In a Barnard.
This was very unexpected because I have never had primer problems before either in an Omark or Barnard over 20 years of shooting.

I had just beforehand developed a very very heavy hand seating primers in SAUM cases. Then, when I loaded some new Lapua 308 cases the problem started.
The SAUM cases had such a tight primer pocket that I expected the Lee primer tool to expire. It had been boosted in strength once already. Some I finally pushed in with a drill press acting as an arbor press. All of this eventually led to the purchase of a new Lee priming tool which was Garbage and eventually to a C21st tool which has far better leverage and minimum friction.
But I digress.

The primers in the 308 were too deep and way below the base of the cartridge.
My habit has always been to press primers in until I felt them bottom.

Eventually I realized that the problem was compounded because this Lapua 308 brass had a different shape to the bottom of the primer pocket.
Instead of an L shaped transition to the bottom of the primer pocket, it was a J shape. The primers - pushed in too hard - actually had their skirt folded inwards allowing them to seat much deeper with my heavy hand. The primer being seated too deep was obvious but it puzzled me for a while why this was so.
No other cartridge Brass has ever looked quite like that batch. Another person I know had a problem at the same time although I am not sure what caused it but was very likely caused by the same thing.

Peter Smith.

Pommy Chris
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Re: Several primers not showing much pin strike

#23 Postby Pommy Chris » Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:39 am

Wal86 wrote:Jasmay.

I was at a shoot last weekend, and a experienced shooter who shoots very well, who had never had a miss fire in all his shooting career, only to have 5 in one day..(new batch of cci)
During that time the conversations on the mound were about cci primer miss fire this and that and how many shooters are getting primer failures, totally disregarding potential for a reloading error because of the shooter credentials..
I spoke to him that night, he was using new lapua brass and he shoots off the lands..
I said I bet your new brass that miss fired has headspace..
Long story short he went home checked cases and they had .006" headspace..

I also notice from time to time that case head separation happens quite alot at shoots, which is a result of over FL sizing brass... (which creates headspace)
Also cci primers are a harder/tougher cup than federal

I was only giving an opinion to help out another shooter, who was having troubles...

And ive never had a miss fire with any primer manufacture, not saying it isn't possible to have a Crook primer but if you happen to manage 3 or 4 miss fires at a shoot then odds are it's a reloading/firearm issue..

Cheers
Alan

At the SA Queens it was asked who had been having misfires with br cci primers and about 20 people put their hands up. Many of those who have had issues dont full length resize either only neck size so no headspace issues. I have seen shooters having issues and inspected the primers myself and they are being hit hard enough but are not going off. There is no question of not believing there was a problem with a batch THERE IS a problem with a batch of CCI primers end of story. Shooters make mistakes reloading but this CCI issues is not a reloading issue.
Chris

Gyro
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Re: Several primers not showing much pin strike

#24 Postby Gyro » Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:05 am

Sounds like a solid argument there Chris.

Now tell me this has anybody ever done a check via some measuring to see if a case that has headspace DOES or DOES NOT get fire formed properly when fired with the bullet NOT jammed and the bolts spring ejector live ?

Ackley did a bunch of experimenting with this and I can't find the story for this topic in the books of his I have BUT the conclusion of his work was if you take the 'extreme' of all the variables at play here and have a case with minimal taper, a chamber with a rough finish and all contacting surfaces totally dry and slip-free then the bolt thrust numbers come down to near zero !!!

Assuming my story above has even some truth wouldn't that make the "fire forming step" one to take seriously ?

Wal86
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Re: Several primers not showing much pin strike

#25 Postby Wal86 » Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:21 pm

Chris,

I can only comment on what ive seen, and in every case so far ive found nothing wrong with the primers only the operators ammunition or rifle..
Ive never had a crook primer, and ive been shooting for a while, and im still of the belief that yes it's quite possible to have a crook primer, but 3 or 4 during a days shoot is far to many, and odds are the primers are NOT to blame..
Cheers

Alan

Gyro
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Re: Several primers not showing much pin strike

#26 Postby Gyro » Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:46 pm

Problem is Alan your story absolutely does not rule out there actually being a batch of dud primers in circulation.

We are running round in circles here. Right now we need a primer manufacturer/expert to jump in on this and I'd be guessing CCI won't be helpful here ?

Pommy Chris
Posts: 168
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Re: Several primers not showing much pin strike

#27 Postby Pommy Chris » Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:50 pm

Wal86 wrote:Chris,

I can only comment on what ive seen, and in every case so far ive found nothing wrong with the primers only the operators ammunition or rifle..
Ive never had a crook primer, and ive been shooting for a while, and im still of the belief that yes it's quite possible to have a crook primer, but 3 or 4 during a days shoot is far to many, and odds are the primers are NOT to blame..
Cheers

Alan

Sorry, but in this case it is the primers at fault and a whole batch at that. Some of these guys having issues were on the Australian team. I have only ever had maybe two shots that failed to go off ever so primers are very reliable indeed, but just because it has not happened to me it does not mean it cant happen. I actually bought some CCI BR primers to try before the Worlds, but after seeing the issues friends were having I decided they were not worth the risk. Just because you have never seen primer issues it does not mean that in this case it is not primers. There was no other issues it was primers full stop. How many Queens have you been to when 20 people all using the same brand and type of primers are having shots that dont go off? We are not talking about an odd shooter here we are talking about very very experienced shooters at a Queens and many of them.
Chris

Pommy Chris
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Re: Several primers not showing much pin strike

#28 Postby Pommy Chris » Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:53 pm

Gyro wrote:Problem is Alan your story absolutely does not rule out there actually being a batch of dud primers in circulation.

We are running round in circles here. Right now we need a primer manufacturer/expert to jump in on this and I'd be guessing CCI won't be helpful here ?

I agree. I did ask someone who know a lot more than me and I was told that the explosive element is sprayed on, a blocked jet and a whole batch gets nothing. So not impossible actually surprising it does not happen more often.
Chris

Wal86
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Re: Several primers not showing much pin strike

#29 Postby Wal86 » Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:48 pm

Chris

So are you suggesting that this particular batch of cci primers had no compound within the primer itself... if so could you please post a photo of this, better yet one that has been struck with no compound..
This could be a way of getting your situation/findings to the right people..
Cheers
Alan

Pommy Chris
Posts: 168
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:05 pm

Re: Several primers not showing much pin strike

#30 Postby Pommy Chris » Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:08 pm

Wal86 wrote:Chris

So are you suggesting that this particular batch of cci primers had no yellow compound within the primer itself... if so could you please post a photo of this, better yet one that has been struck with no compound..
This could be a way of getting your situation/findings to the right people..
Cheers
Alan

I dont use these primer as I said. Also there may be compound in but not enough or of poor quality dodgy batch of compound, lots of reasons for the primer not going off. All I know is you are going round in circles on this. There IS an issue with a batch and many ditched them at least until the bad ones are out of circulation. This has become a known issue everyone accepts apart you it seems. Around 20 people at a Queens (unheard of numbers misfires!!) reporting issues and more issues at the Nationals, one poor girl was having difficulty to get anything to go off, replacing primers over night fixed the issue following day. No ifs or buts there is a bad batch of BR primers out there what is so hard to grasp!
Chris


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