Clarification of Standard Shooting Rules for 2017 QRA Queens

Get or give advice on equipment, reloading and other technical issues.

Moderator: Mod

Message
Author
johnk
Posts: 2120
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:55 pm
Location: Brisbane

Clarification of Standard Shooting Rules for 2017 QRA Queens

#1 Postby johnk » Sun Aug 06, 2017 3:18 pm

We learned quite a bit from our first Electronic Target Queens in 2016 – QRA as the promoter & you as the competitors – regarding the complexity that scoring places on both scorers and shooters. These SSRs are particularly pertinent:

4.1.3.6 When electronic targets are used, the scorer and if possible also the check scorer, shall watch the monitor as soon as the shot has been fired to confirm a hit has been registered.

4.1.3.7 The scorer will call and record each shot as it is signalled and ensure that the check scorer acknowledges each call by repeating the shot value.

4.1.3.12 The competitor must after firing each shot, pay attention to the score called out by the scorer and ensure that the scorer has called out the correct score for each shot. This is especially important if the competitor is firing quickly or an electronic target monitor is being used.

Appendix 6

2. The Scorer is to closely observe his shooter as he/she fires and the resultant shot and value displayed on the monitor, and is to record all fired shots (whether scored or not) to the score card immediately. A hit on the timber frame of the target may not result in a value being provided but is to be given the value of a “Hit” in all cases. (i.e. A score of 1)

3. If a shot fails to display on the monitor or if an additional or stray shot appears without the shooter having fired, the Scorer is to immediately inform the Range Officer, and have the shooter suspend his/her firing until the issue is resolved-by the Range Officer. Refer to Rules 4.5.1.5.2 and following when this occurs.

It was agreed at the meeting of the QRA Queens Committee on 5 August that the procedure below is adhered to:

Scorers need to position themselves & scoring monitors so they can observe the monitor, the shooter & desirably the range forward of the shooter.

The scorer will call:

    When the shooter fires
    The shot number & value of the shot fired once he verifies it from his monitor.
Obviously, these steps could be expected to be a continuous sequence, e.g.

    Target 6, third business, super V
The shooter will confirm that he accepts the value of a shot before firing the next shot. If he chooses, he make take his subsequent shot immediately after the scorer calls the value, in which case that will be tacit acceptance of the value called.

Scorers will be warned if they do not make clear & prompt calls. Shooters will be warned if they are identified firing subsequent shots before the value of the previous shot is called. The QRA reserves the right to revalue such subsequent shots as zero for persistent offenders.

You are reminded that extra shots appearing on monitors should be reported immediately to either ET Assist staff or Range Officers & shooting should not proceed until the matter is resolved.

Note that Hexta targets are constructed with framing outside the SSR 2400mm x 180mm target dimensions & a shot recorded via a message of shot hit frame will accordingly be scored as a zero value. ET Assist staff or Range Officers are the only people permitted to adjust scores in this case & should be called immediately

John Kielly
Chief Range Officer, Queensland Rifle Association

bsouthernau
Posts: 558
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:31 pm

Re: Clarification of Standard Shooting Rules for 2017 QRA Queens

#2 Postby bsouthernau » Sun Aug 06, 2017 4:44 pm

What about taking fired cases onto the mound John? There was some unpleasantness at the veterans matches caused by a shooter having done so, thereby making it impossible to dertermine the number of shots fired.

RJNEILSEN
Posts: 71
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:17 pm
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Re: Clarification of Standard Shooting Rules for 2017 QRA Queens

#3 Postby RJNEILSEN » Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:22 pm

So the rate of "machine gunning" is determined/limited by the vocals of the scorer?

LukeB
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:05 pm

Re: Clarification of Standard Shooting Rules for 2017 QRA Queens

#4 Postby LukeB » Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:46 pm

Seems to be Ryan, What we have seen though at OPM's & Queens is less attentiveness in scoring as the process appears "automatic". This has led to the scorer being more of a passenger in the process and cross-firing or misses going undetected. I guess these changes help encourage more communication between scorer and shooter. Should be positive, and what was happening all along.

johnk
Posts: 2120
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:55 pm
Location: Brisbane

Re: Clarification of Standard Shooting Rules for 2017 QRA Queens

#5 Postby johnk » Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:53 pm

bsouthernau wrote:What about taking fired cases onto the mound John?

Seems to me that uncertainty about the number of shots fired is independent of the numbers of empties on display when ETs are used, as it always has been on paper targets.

A scorer acting in accord with SSRs would know how many shots were fired. An honest shooter would acknowledge the same. A dishonest shooter could secrete a fired case given the failure of the scorer, so why pi$$ off shooters who spend enormous time batching their brass when it is unlikely to serve any purpose?

...or are you saying that vets have issues scoring?

johnk
Posts: 2120
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:55 pm
Location: Brisbane

Re: Clarification of Standard Shooting Rules for 2017 QRA Queens

#6 Postby johnk » Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:00 pm

RJNEILSEN wrote:So the rate of "machine gunning" is determined/limited by the vocals of the scorer?

As it was, as it always should be.

QRA believes that "machine gunning" is an aberration created by promoting bodies not complying with the SSRs, particularly those regarding scoring previously published. My original post is to point out that QRA has determined how the matter of firing cadence will be managed at the upcoming Queens to permit those who disagree to review their entries.

RJNEILSEN
Posts: 71
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:17 pm
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Re: Clarification of Standard Shooting Rules for 2017 QRA Queens

#7 Postby RJNEILSEN » Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:37 pm

LukeB wrote:Seems to be Ryan, What we have seen though at OPM's & Queens is less attentiveness in scoring as the process appears "automatic". This has led to the scorer being more of a passenger in the process and cross-firing or misses going undetected. I guess these changes help encourage more communication between scorer and shooter. Should be positive, and what was happening all along.


This "less attentiveness" is one thing I don't like about my my club shoots on electronic targets. It's less personal and less friendly. This is the wrong thread for this and I am all for electronic targets, but I do miss the human factor of manual targets.

AlanF
Posts: 6585
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:22 pm
Location: Maffra, Vic

Re: Clarification of Standard Shooting Rules for 2017 QRA Queens

#8 Postby AlanF » Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:15 pm

johnk wrote:It was agreed at the meeting of the QRA Queens Committee on 5 August that the procedure below is adhered to:

Scorers need to position themselves & scoring monitors so they can observe the monitor, the shooter & desirably the range forward of the shooter.

The scorer will call:

    When the shooter fires
    The shot number & value of the shot fired once he verifies it from his monitor.
Obviously, these steps could be expected to be a continuous sequence, e.g.

    Target 6, third business, super V
The shooter will confirm that he accepts the value of a shot before firing the next shot. If he chooses, he make take his subsequent shot immediately after the scorer calls the value, in which case that will be tacit acceptance of the value called.

Scorers will be warned if they do not make clear & prompt calls. Shooters will be warned if they are identified firing subsequent shots before the value of the previous shot is called. The QRA reserves the right to revalue such subsequent shots as zero for persistent offenders.
...

John,

If this is able to be achieved , then congratulations to the QRA.

However I remain in favour of a short ET delay as a fairer way of controlling very fast shooting. Better to take advantage of the new technology and make the delay the same for everyone, rather than relying on scorers of varying speed and reliability. An unwanted side effect could be conflict between shooter and scorer.

bsouthernau
Posts: 558
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:31 pm

Re: Clarification of Standard Shooting Rules for 2017 QRA Queens

#9 Postby bsouthernau » Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:39 pm

johnk wrote:
bsouthernau wrote:What about taking fired cases onto the mound John?

Seems to me that uncertainty about the number of shots fired is independent of the numbers of empties on display when ETs are used, as it always has been on paper targets.

A scorer acting in accord with SSRs would know how many shots were fired. An honest shooter would acknowledge the same. A dishonest shooter could secrete a fired case given the failure of the scorer, so why pi$$ off shooters who spend enormous time batching their brass when it is unlikely to serve any purpose?

...or are you saying that vets have issues scoring?


Probably does come down to honesty John.

In more detail about this particular incident:

Scorer and check scorer both think a shot has gone down range and not registered on the target
Considering last couple of shots a miss is not out of the question
Shooter and coach are going on claiming all their shots have been recorded
RO called in and no way of resolving impasse

In the preceding days of the NRA Queens competitors had been instructed not to bring empty cases to the mound. If this had been continued into the Vets shoot this unfortunate incident would have been avoided. It doesn't negate the effort of batching cases - you just take the empties out of the box before going to the mound and then replace them when you finish that range.

johnk
Posts: 2120
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:55 pm
Location: Brisbane

Re: Clarification of Standard Shooting Rules for 2017 QRA Queens

#10 Postby johnk » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:39 am

Interesting, Barry.

IMO, any RO worth his salt will adjudicate in favour of two scorers agreeing that the shot has gone downrange. Too often, scorers go weak in the guts & back down when confronted with an assertive/aggressive shooter.

I cannot accept case count as a determinant when a fired case can easily be concealed. Hide it & grab the last unfired case in the box & there's no unaccountable space.

LukeB
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:05 pm

Re: Clarification of Standard Shooting Rules for 2017 QRA Queens

#11 Postby LukeB » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:53 am

Agree with your observations on conflict avoidance in scoring. This is why I like having the requirement to inform the RO or ET staff of stray shots on target. Most misses will come from firing on the wrong target, and every stray shot should have a corresponding miss logged somewhere, otherwise something has been missed.


Return to “Equipment & Technical”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 2 guests