280 AI information Blog

Get or give advice on equipment, reloading and other technical issues.

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plumbs7
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Location: Dalby/ Tara Rifle Club

280 AI information Blog

#1 Postby plumbs7 » Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:04 pm

Ok , with Great Request from heaps of people ! ..... arrrh! Well a couple of people haha! The 280 Ackley blog is up and running. It's a little early, but I see some people putting up their loads and thought I'd better get this up and running . So people can put their loads up on here instead of the old thread that I dug up from a few years ago !

Well where are we at ? Ok I have a 30" Lilja 3 groove with a big knob ready to be screwed into my Panda action ! I have 200 Norma 30-06 brass! Which I'm told by a good gun smith that I'll be
40-50 thou
short making out of 30-06 brass. There was $60 difference between 280 Ai and 30-06 brass . So that is why! I have a set of dies and 2213 sc powder all ready to go ! I am also now broke ! Lol!
But all of this exciting voyage of discovery will have to wait until after the Nationals !

So in the interim , if you could , please repost your fav load again !
Regards Graham!
Ps see u at Belmont soon !

willow
Posts: 120
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2015 9:51 pm

Re: 280 AI information Blog

#2 Postby willow » Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:51 am

32" Bartlein 5R, 1:8.5 twist. 59.4gr of 2217 yields 2830 av, SD of 7 with 180gr VLDs. Using Norma 280AI brass, CCI BR2 primers. Groups well but I think there's another node at 60.8 of 2217 which I will experiment with next month when I'm home.

Steve N
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Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 8:16 pm
Location: Logan Queensland

Re: 280 AI information Blog

#3 Postby Steve N » Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:26 am

I have been using weight sorted and fireformed Winchester brand Win 270 brass in a variation of the 280AI. Load of 55gr of 2209 behind a 180 mollied hybrid jumped 15 thou with a BR2 gave 2920 fps. Was okay but ES of around 25 fps let me down at 1000 yards with elevation. Will put it away for a while and try again later.

GSells
Posts: 84
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:04 pm

Re: 280 AI information Blog

#4 Postby GSells » Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:47 am

Good morning guys ! After a self imposed sin binning with " that Et issue". I figured that it maybe good to come back , but under my own name and not under plumbs 7 , hopefully being more accountable for my actions and also hopefully putting my integrity on the line so to speak . The Et issue was very nasty between us all and unfortunate aberration that no one could foresee at the time . It split us all into deeper divisions that may have been at the cost of Mate ship and the sport in general?

Well , my shooting fraternity!! Our friends just again won the Worlds !! With Ftr 2nd !!! Yeh!
On the platform of Goodwill , I would really like to move forward in the vein of goodwill and Mateship
To see this 280 Ai blog through. I would also love to see divisions heal and a free flow of information with friendly banter again . For the common good of this great sport !
Yours Faithfully Graham Sells.
Last edited by GSells on Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

GSells
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Re: 280 AI information Blog

#5 Postby GSells » Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:23 am

So with the formality out the way ! What have I been doing while being in exile ?
Well just a recap ! I have a 1-9 twist Lilja, 30" barrel with a huge donger and of course , some o rings !
I bought 200 30-06 Norma brass at $ 120/100 , bargain hey! And proceeded to fireform !
I first neck turned down to .303-.304 for a .307 tight neck .
Then formed a false shoulder when down sizing from 30 cal to 7 mm to establish a false shoulder.
This was to establish the correct head space so it will fire .
Then I used as50 n pistal powder and cream of wheat to fire form about 50 cases.

" do not use 30/06 brass!!!!" Use either .280 or .280 Ai brass! I'll say that now and keep reading as to why ""

Ok , so I started at 52 gr 2213 sc netting me 2450 fps , went to 57 gr to get 2730 fps same speed I get with 180's in my 7-08 Ai with 46.3 gr of 2209!
At this stage my first opinions of this cal was " it's bit of a pudding!"
Up to 59 to get to my .284 of 2860 fps with another 9 gr of powder! Wow I'm not that impressed !!
Below is the first 6 shots fired from the barrel at 2450 fps at 100 m's
Image
Then next pic below is about 10 shots with speeds varring form 2730 -2945 fps as I upped the charge at 94 m's.
Image

My last load was 60.4 2213 sc to get 2940 fps average. No evidence of misfires in testing at all!
So of To Crows nest to test at 500 yds with about 15 rounds on the barrel !
Well I had about 50 percent misfires !! Bad ! But in choppy conditions below is what I could achieve!
I was pretty happy and not for the misfires the score could potentially be better ??
Image
Image
Ok I'll do more on this blog later , have to go to do work around the house . But it looked promising, didn't it ?
Regards Graham.

Ps , 3 Rd party hosting not working, I've updated my phot bucket account . So hopefully the pics will fix itself. But just tap on icons to see pics !

GSells
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Re: 280 AI information Blog

#6 Postby GSells » Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:00 am

I'm sorry about the photos , but unable to do 3 Rd party hosting. So I will learn how to do another way.
But like I said just tap on the icons above to see the relivent photos.

So Yes , even though I had a lot of misfires, I thought that now the cases were fire formed and I would be out of the woods !
So before I go further . The .280 rem and .280 Ai are 50 thou longer than a .270 or 30/06 . This was so theat a .280 wouldn't fire in a .270 and visa versa. In a saami spec .280 Ai chamber you will have all sorts of issues unless your chamber is setup to use 30/06 brass. Khgs on this forum told me I would have troubles and I did ! Even if you do a false shoulder your neck is way shorter by the time it's ff with 30/06 brass.

Even when my 30/06 brass was ff it still misfired . I believe that contact with the firing pin shoved the case forward a fly spec leading to different lengths in cases , even long seating projectiles didn't stop misfires!

So more testing , though I would try Fed primers as they seem to light easier than Cci . Testing , I'm mean about 7-10 rounds ! No misfires and things looked ok ! So through endless optimism, I went to Ipswich opm , thinking that after Crowsnest shoots and subsequent limited testing I would fair ok!

Wrong ! It misfired and had sticky bolt and huge verical! I retired on the 7 th shot as it was just getting dangerous and finished off with a .308 on factory ammo!
I came last , thankfully somebody loaned me a ftr rifle to finished the last 800 m 's ( thanks Darryl!).
But a little silly not packing Ng the 7/08 Ai or .284 barrel just in case !
More later .
The top photo is showing the difference between 30/06 brass ff to Ai as opposed to280 Ai brass !
Sorry for it being on its side ! I'll work it out eventually!
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willow
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Re: 280 AI information Blog

#7 Postby willow » Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:30 pm

Hi Graham, sorry to read about your troubles. I had previously read about US shooters also trying to fireform out of 30-06 brass for the Lapua factor and suffice to say they had the same trouble you did. Only way around it would be to have a custom reamer made to suit the slightly shorter brass so your chamber dimensions won't be off. I'm up to 10 reloads on Norma 280ai brass so all in all it has proven decent so far. My 2217 load is also proving quite mild in terms of pressure which helps.

GSells
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Re: 280 AI information Blog

#8 Postby GSells » Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:43 pm

Hi Willow , I agree with what you said . I believe the reamer that Mark Fairbarn uses is based on the .270 case which is what u would need for 30-06 brass.
Steve N maybe able to chime in to give further info?

Also the story does get better ! I'll post more when time permits! I'll say that this cartridge is a speed machine , capable of 3000 plus fps with 180's with very , very slight primer flattening . But that's more to come !

GSells
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Re: 280 AI information Blog

#9 Postby GSells » Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:54 pm

Well what to do now ? After doing a bit of reading about the difference in lengths between 30/06 and .280 . I rustled up some .280 Ai Norma brass ! I can advise that this is the best way to go ! Just buy 280 Ai brass straight up . You will save barrel life and money instead of ff .

I went to chamber the Ai brass and no go ! Head space to tight ! The barrel was pre fit and the Gun smith unable to check as I was using my action platform at the time .

So I grabbed my 7-08 Ai neck die and bumped the shoulder back a fly speck and then through a body die to get the correct head space .
Then loaded up 60.4 gr 2213 sc ( this safe in my rifle ) with Cci primers and head of to Dalby last weekend!
Well what an improvement! Beautiful waterline at 600 yds and an unbelievable 3000 fps !! Also used a lab radar for the first time and they are good ! My magspeed throws a funny speed every now then . But the lab radar was solid info !
I had a brain spat and thought it was only doing 2900 fps ! It was only after the shoot that the penny dropped that I was doing over 3000 fps , and it does it very easily!
Unfortunately that is too fast for Belmont and John would have to book me for speeden ! Great load though!
Hear is a go pro vid of the shoot ! I think this is great for training purpose and for sharing the experience too!
I did have a misfire but it still went off 2nd try. Should be ok now they are ff brass!
https://youtu.be/eEl5EU_1a4A

GSells
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Re: 280 AI information Blog

#10 Postby GSells » Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:58 pm

Well just an update ! Even though this cal can push a 180 hybrid over 3000 fps , it comes at a cost .
60.4 gr 2213 sc opened up the primer pockets more than what I like . I remember pushing the lil 7/08 Ai over 2800 fps with 180's and the primer pockets started leaking and accuracy went out the window!
The lil cal came into its own when I Backed off a grain and slowed it down and accuracy really went upwards! But only to 8-900 yds max !

I figure this Ackley maybe the same ? So I've backed off 1.4 gr of 2213sc with speeds around 2935-2945 fps . In theory it should give good case life but accuracy was hard to gage . As the conditions were just awful at my 500 m test range .

Hopefully going to club shoot at 900 yds this weekend and if that goes well , maybe shoot it At Gundy sweepstakes ( day 1 ) . I'll keep u posted if anything good happens!
8)

GSells
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Re: 280 AI information Blog

#11 Postby GSells » Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:24 am

Ok , I was loading for club shoot last night and I measured the primer pockets of the 60.4 gr load . They measured.2105 as opposed to .2055 for new brass! What a shame that the cal itself can handle the 3000 fps speed , but the brass can't .

Now during development 60.4 2213 sc was producing 2940 fps , my goel speed and no signs with pressure! I bought a new batch of powder, so this and the barrel speeding up could be the culprit!
But it was a cracking good load . But not sustainable with the brass on offer and not to mention with weather warming up that you may have to retire during a Comp because of sticky bolt and safety!
But yes new brass is toast in just one firing ! Not good !

KHGS
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Location: Cowra NSW
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Re: 280 AI information Blog

#12 Postby KHGS » Sat Aug 26, 2017 9:51 am

perceivably wrote:Ok , I was loading for club shoot last night and I measured the primer pockets of the 60.4 gr load . They measured.2105 as opposed to .2055 for new brass! What a shame that the cal itself can handle the 3000 fps speed , but the brass can't .

Now during development 60.4 2213 perceivably was producing 2940 fps , my exhibit speed and no signs with pressure! I bought a new batch of powder, so this and the barrel speeding up could be the culprit!
But it was a cracking good load . But not sustainable with the brass on offer and not to mention with weather warming up that you may have to retire during a Comp because of sticky bolt and safety!
But yes new brass is toast in just one firing ! Not good !


If you want 2940fps with good brass life, better get a SAUM!!! Brass is & always has been the limiting factor with what performance (velocity) you can achieve with any chambering!!! High pressures = short brass life!!! High pressures = drastically reduced barrel life!!! One other thing not thought about, but is none the less factual is the fact that any given bullet must be driven at least 200fps faster to reduce wind drift by 1/2 minute at 1000yds in a 10mph cross wind!! Now I have been around in rifle shooting since possibly before you were born & I have done my share of wind coaching in my time & I cannot read a 1/2 minute change at 1000yds in a 10mph wind!!! The point is that barrels & brass are the most costly items in F-Open, so why would anyone drive them both to extinction for NO perceivably gain??? Think about it & believe me higher velocity than what is correct for any chambering is not wise. I run my 280 HI little slower than it is capable of because I run 2209 powder, I do this because I am fond of 2209 & it gives me good accuracy & barrel life. To get the velocity my case is capable (at correct pressures) of 2213sc would be better, but I am not a fan of 2213sc I have always found it to be not as flexible as I like & for the sake of 40 of 50fps I go with what I like. Life & shooting is full of compromises!! My findings & two cents worth!!!!!
Keith H.
P.S. My 280 HI is a little smaller than 280 AI. My case is about halfway between a 284 Shehane & a 7mm SAUM.
I should point out that ADI's pressure barrel gives a pressure of 62,000 ft lbs Pieseo with 175 grn bullets & 55 grns of 2213 sc in the 280 AI. So I would be cautious with the load of 2213 & 180 grn bullets you are using. I am NOT saying that your load is unsafe at all, just drawing attention to it is all. One other thing you need to be aware of is that AI chambers do not exhibit the same pressure signs as most standard chamberings.

GSells
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Re: 280 AI information Blog

#13 Postby GSells » Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:16 pm

Keith as per usual, very wise words ! Sort of makes me think why should I bother , when I have a .284 shooting quite well ! I guess that is part of the adventure.
You were the first to point out that I was pushing the lil 7/08 Ai too hard ! I've learnt ( well hopefully!)

GSells
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Re: 280 AI information Blog

#14 Postby GSells » Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:06 am

Well , went to Club shoot at 820 yds ( Dalby Mounds like most western ranges are a little bit out ) with the reduced load giving 2935 fps and it went well! I'll say at Dalby at 800 yds which I shot there a couple of years ago . Well last time it was 105 out of 126 10 and 11 record shots ( I think that may have been 900 yds !) .

Well I shot a 57.2 which I was happy with , good waterline except 2 shots due to Dalby Grinch ( unexplained vertical) . My Clubmate threw done the same and it was on like Donkey Kong!

I came back with What I thought would have it won in those conditions ( highest f s score was 114), a 65.5! J m came back with a brilliant 65.7 and she was shooting a 6 mm dasher !! She is back in form !

So at the end of it , wind reading skills and accuracy rule , not speed or bc as much .
I think give me an accurate.284 any day , in terms of case life and barrel life !
Let's face it , the 280 Ai is only 70 fps faster than my .284 ! Is that going to be that notable in wind reading at 1000 yds ? It may help at Belmont with its vertical that seems to be around ?
Any way I'm happy with the load of 59 gr 2213 sc . This is safe in my rifle , but heed the warnings of Keith H as mentioned above !
I think that is about it for now !
Others may feel free to comment if they like?
Regards Graham.

williada
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Re: 280 AI information Blog

#15 Postby williada » Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:51 am

Keith is on the money Graham. Speed kills. It comes with a cost. It is best served in a case which will accommodate pressures if you are worried about vertical at 1000 yards and your tuning knowledge is limited. This is where the SAUM is ideal. Its still fun to see what works and what does not and so others can make informed decisions. Its the old trade-off between the journey and the result.


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