Scopes FYI

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Matt P
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Scopes FYI

#1 Postby Matt P » Wed May 17, 2017 10:04 am


jasmay
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Re: Scopes FYI

#2 Postby jasmay » Wed May 17, 2017 2:00 pm

Will be interesting to see what Dave Mac and Peter Smith have to say regarding this.

AlanF
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Re: Scopes FYI

#3 Postby AlanF » Wed May 17, 2017 2:37 pm

You wouldn't happen to be a March user would you Matt?

I have to say that I'm not convinced - the small sample size is a concern, and assumptions regarding the mounting of the scopes, and the "frozen" scope are not iron-clad.

I have a testing system which is remarkably similar to the one described, but with more scientific integrity. It can hold up to 4 scopes side by side. It is mounted on my very light Tikka .308, which produces a healthy kick. The scopes add weight to bring it up to approx F-Class rifle weight. I also use a grid and wind all scopes near to the centre of the grid, and record their coordinates. After firing one or more shots, I then point the scopes back near the centre of the grid and record the coordinates again. The before and after shift in coordinates of all scopes is then calculated and compared. In my experience of testing a large number of scopes it is quite rare to find one that is moving. They usually all agree to within 0.1MOA. I believe this method is superior to the one explained on Accurate Shooter because if 3 or 4 scopes all show no movement, then it eliminates any possibility of mounting or frozen scope movement.

All the same I'll be putting my NF15-55 through a testing time in the next few days. :)

plumbs7
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Re: Scopes FYI

#4 Postby plumbs7 » Wed May 17, 2017 4:50 pm

I think you would know when your gear is not performing. I've broken 2 nxs scopes due to poor scope mounts and especially the second time it was clear it had let go . Both times Nf fixed no questions asked ! So when ur rifle is driving trough the same hole at distance. You would say that my NF Comp scope is just Awesome! :lol:

pjifl
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Re: Scopes FYI

#5 Postby pjifl » Wed May 17, 2017 5:59 pm

My first reaction on reading that thread was ' horror'. I think his method of testing may be valid but the results in my opinion are a bit misleading because that grid he uses is only a 1/4 minute grid. Even so, if true, it would be unacceptable.

But it does not correspond with my experiences.

Admittedly I have seen only a few new riflescopes to test recently but every NF Comp scope I tested in the past has shown no errors like those. DaveMc has tested many more new Comp scopes than I have and I know he has never seen errors of that magnitude. But testing reaction to recoil is always problematic.

For what its worth, the most common error I see in quality riflescopes is a Zoom Reversal error. This may happen anywhere along the zoom path - it need not be at the extreme stops although it is common there. But this is usually less than 1/4 of a click - ie 1/32 minute. Just occasionally I have seen an error of this type of 1/16 minute.

Before I believed that there were a questionable batch of NF Comp scopes coming out, I would want to see this repeated and the scope mounts cleared of any blame.
BR shooting at the highest level is probably more demanding but there are a lot of NF Comp scopes shooting extremely good scores in F class !

Some people in that thread seem to think errors like this are caused by a moving Graticule. In my opinion, having seen how they are held in place, this would be the least likely culprit.
In any case, in a high magnification second focal plane scope, the aimpoint is less sensitive to a moving Graticule because of magnification in the erector/zoom tube.
If there is a problem it is most likely related to the zoom/erector tube and its movement via the turrets but again I have never seen erratic movement by the turrets in these scopes.

If you have the capability, some testing may be well worthwhile. But be very careful that your testing setup is capable of repetition to the accuracy required. We are dealing with angles smaller in many cases than a typical theodolite.

Peter Smith.

Matt P
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Re: Scopes FYI

#6 Postby Matt P » Wed May 17, 2017 7:51 pm

[quote="AlanF"]You wouldn't happen to be a March user would you Matt?

Alan
What difference does that make ???
I posted purely as a "FYI", nothing more.
I have heard of a couple of Comps falling over here in AU.
Yep I have 2 March scopes, I'm happy to pay the extra for what I believe is a better mechanical system, even though the NF Comp may have an edge optically, MAYBE !!
Matt P

AlanF
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Re: Scopes FYI

#7 Postby AlanF » Wed May 17, 2017 10:22 pm

Matt,

It might have been FYI but most Comp owners would probably rather not hear it :) . This is getting a bit like Ford vs Holden. Anyway, I'm going to check my NF Comp, Sightron, Leupold and Weaver side by side over several shots, and see if any of them misbehave (they didn't last time). I'll post the results here.

Alan

jasmay
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Re: Scopes FYI

#8 Postby jasmay » Thu May 18, 2017 6:54 am

Matt P wrote:
AlanF wrote:You wouldn't happen to be a March user would you Matt?

Alan
What difference does that make ???
I posted purely as a "FYI", nothing more.
I have heard of a couple of Comps falling over here in AU.
Yep I have 2 March scopes, I'm happy to pay the extra for what I believe is a better mechanical system, even though the NF Comp may have an edge optically, MAYBE !!
Matt P


Just the usual "to a fro" really, I have heard the same about March, actually assisted a return of one from SA just last week for an issue.

Come on guys, every manufacturer has issues at some stage with their gear, could be 1 in 1000 or less or more, heck recently I heard a shooter tell me of an issue with a brand new barrel chambered by one of the best in Australia (Not you Matt) which had to go back.

Don't let the hype effect what you are doing, and the best thing about issues like this, the top manufactures sort the problems out, if there is one to start with.

Interesting to read and be aware of the issue, I wouldn't let it effect my scope choice though.

I'm off to get the popcorn.... :roll: :lol:

KHGS
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Re: Scopes FYI

#9 Postby KHGS » Thu May 18, 2017 9:14 am

jasmay wrote:
Matt P wrote:
AlanF wrote:You wouldn't happen to be a March user would you Matt?

Alan
What difference does that make ???
I posted purely as a "FYI", nothing more.
I have heard of a couple of Comps falling over here in AU.
Yep I have 2 March scopes, I'm happy to pay the extra for what I believe is a better mechanical system, even though the NF Comp may have an edge optically, MAYBE !!
Matt P


Just the usual "to a fro" really, I have heard the same about March, actually assisted a return of one from SA just last week for an issue.

Come on guys, every manufacturer has issues at some stage with their gear, could be 1 in 1000 or less or more, heck recently I heard a shooter tell me of an issue with a brand new barrel chambered by one of the best in Australia (Not you Matt) which had to go back.

Don't let the hype effect what you are doing, and the best thing about issues like this, the top manufactures sort the problems out, if there is one to start with.

Interesting to read and be aware of the issue, I wouldn't let it effect my scope choice though.

I'm off to get the popcorn.... :roll: :lol:


It wasn't me either! I just thought I would clarify that!
Keith H.
:)

Wal86
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Re: Scopes FYI

#10 Postby Wal86 » Thu May 18, 2017 10:21 am

Unfortunately with any mass produced item there is going to be quality issues at some point.. On the other hand the customer has at times alot to answer for..

How many people out there correctly fit there scopes?
ie. Lap and bed rings so scope has 100% true contact with ring.
Anti seize threads and screw heads so they dont bind on the aluminum ring/and become loose
Set rings and base up so scope can stay in the centre of its travel ect..
I would say that on the mound less than half would do this, which effects any products performance..

AlanF
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Re: Scopes FYI

#11 Postby AlanF » Thu May 18, 2017 8:29 pm

I did some testing today using 3 scopes side by side, being a NF Competition 2014, a Weaver T24 and a Sightron 10-50. I used a 0.5 MOA grid at 65 metres in ideal conditions with all scopes set to 24X. I took readings estimated to +/-0.05MOA before and after each of 5 shots with a Tikka .308, Winchester 155gn factory target ammo, probably running about 2850fps, all up rifle and scopes weight 7.5Kg. This should be at least as violent as a typical 7mm F-Open rifle.

In terms of horizontal, the NF agreed well with the Sightron with a spread of 0.15MOA, so hardly more than reading error. The Weaver showed a spread of 0.25MOA against both the Sightron and NF.

Vertical was more problematic. Immediately after the first shot there was complete disagreement between the 3 scopes, with the extremes (NF and Weaver) being 0.65MOA apart! After that the NF and Weaver settled very well compared to each other until after the 5th shot when there was a conflict of about 0.20MOA. The Sightron didn't settle at all well compared to the other two, and seems be in need of some air travel. I'm not complaining - its the one I used for FCWC 2013 so is entitled its first service.

So in summary, I didn't see the windage error in the NF Comp as found in all 3 Comps in the US test. And I suspect that the one-off vertical movement encountered after the first shot is quite common, and fortunately not really serious for us with 2 sighters. I think that 5 shots isn't enough for reasonable certainty, and will do a more extensive test ASAP. I need to know where to put the blame for the 0.2MOA vertical difference between the Weaver and NF after the 5th shot! To do that I'll need at least one more reliable scope, so may borrow from clubmates.

On the subject of reading on grids, I think it would be extremely difficult to read better than +/-0.5MOA, and would question the US claim that the March showed zero movement. Even if it was perfect, I'd expect rounding errors to cause at least 0.1MOA spread in the results.

So don't lose heart NF Comp owners - who knows, if we can get to test 3 used Marches against a new NF ..... :D

pjifl
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Re: Scopes FYI

#12 Postby pjifl » Thu May 18, 2017 9:15 pm

Alan, perhaps swap over which scope is in what mount for another test. I think in practice there is often a tiny bit of movement when first used.
I like to re-tighten all scope and rail fixtures after the first days shooting then leave a scope alone and on the rifle.

Also record temperature.

Peter Smith.

AlanF
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Re: Scopes FYI

#13 Postby AlanF » Fri May 19, 2017 3:25 pm

Yes Peter, I'll act on that advice. Probably will be mid-next week when I get back to it.

Brad Y
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Re: Scopes FYI

#14 Postby Brad Y » Fri May 19, 2017 7:39 pm

See the thread on accurateshooter went down the toilet....

Wal86
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Re: Scopes FYI

#15 Postby Wal86 » Fri May 19, 2017 7:52 pm

AlanF

Ive been thinking about your testing, and I was wondering what your comparing against.. As your results maybe conflicting against one scope to another...
"Immediately after the first shot complete disagreement between 3 scopes"
I may be wrong and not exactly understand your testing but without a fixed scope (neutral) how can you get accurate results..

One way too check a rifle scope for repeatability is put a collimator on the end of your barrel and adjust your focus and rear parallax, scopes that are shifting point of impact will shift with this test...


Alan


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