F-Open to F-STD

Get or give advice on equipment, reloading and other technical issues.

Moderator: Mod

Message
Author
jasmay
Posts: 1291
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:26 pm

Re: F-Open to F-STD

#16 Postby jasmay » Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:58 pm

certain rules mean a more level playing field, and IMO trigger weight is a good one.

If you opened up trigger weight straight away you'd have another group of elites with dollars to burn throwing triggers like Jewells and Bix & Andy's on adding anything from 450-800 again.

Personally I think the allowance of pedestals into F-Std was a mistake.

But anywho, I'm on the dark side and one of few who choose to shoot FTR, if you think F-Std is hard come and play FTR. F-Std shooters think we shoot it bra use heavier pills give us an advantage, nothing to do with it, and the few that I know that have tried it often end up much like your transition from open to std Denis.

BenW
Posts: 94
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:13 am

Re: F-Open to F-STD

#17 Postby BenW » Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:04 am

I have only been shooting F Class for a couple of years now, and shoot F STD only. I went Std as it's a good learning class to figure out all the different aspects of getting them down there accurately. I don't have a problem with a 1 kg trigger, yes it was probably brought in so as to make the change over from TR to F as minimal as possible. As others have said if you want a light trigger and heavier projectiles go F/TR which I have been toying with lately but will probably go back to a front rest.

Graham I'll openly say PROTEST re your weather tent ;)

johnk
Posts: 2211
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:55 pm
Location: Brisbane

Re: F-Open to F-STD

#18 Postby johnk » Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:43 pm

BenW wrote:Graham I'll openly say PROTEST re your weather tent ;)

Graham,

Don't do it on Belmont

John

GrahamW
Posts: 182
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:43 pm
Location: Bathurst, NSW
Contact:

Re: F-Open to F-STD

#19 Postby GrahamW » Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:51 pm

johnk wrote:
BenW wrote:Graham I'll openly say PROTEST re your weather tent ;)

Graham,

Don't do it on Belmont

John


John, you'll notice on the thread I posted about my "tent" that once I read through the thread you showed me I have already scrapped the tent idea. 8-)

(I'm just ignoring Ben.... he's a little slow. ;-) )

johnk
Posts: 2211
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:55 pm
Location: Brisbane

Re: F-Open to F-STD

#20 Postby johnk » Sun Apr 02, 2017 1:38 pm

I'm with you, but the way the natives get restless these days, I felt that they needed to know that there is a line drawn in the sand on occasion.

DenisA
Posts: 1526
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:00 pm
Location: Sunshine Coast, QLD

Re: F-Open to F-STD

#21 Postby DenisA » Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:29 pm

Thanks for all the feedback. It's interesting to hear the different opinions.

I really like F-STD for it's level playing field in components and I love shooting off a front rest, so I won't be changing to FTR. The heavy trigger isn't enough to turn me off STD.

Jason I just assumed that pedestal rests were allowed in F-STD from the beginning. How long after the start did they allow them?

To clarify, the reason that I think F-STD is so much harder than F-Open is the inferior ballistics, I don't think that F-STD is harder because of the heavy trigger. That's my point. I don't think that the heavy trigger achieves anything. I've still been free recoiling my F-STD gun, without any grip or stock contact with excellent results, the trigger weight just feels needless.

In my opinion an F-STD gun and setup is high precision. The front and rear rests designed for a rifle to slide, as previously pointed out, so close to an Open rifle that it can be hard to tell the difference at a glance. All that precision equipment finished off with a such a heavy, clumsy trigger seems out of place and strange.

Razer
Posts: 530
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:44 pm
Location: Orange,N.S.W.

Re: F-Open to F-STD

#22 Postby Razer » Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:31 pm

Rough analysis. About 2003 FO was dying due to OPM's not catering for it and the NRAA engaged 3 people, set up as a committee to revise the rules pertaining to FS. They decided to allow pedestal rests as many FO shooters already had them and from what I can gather it was decided if the bi-pod only rule was retained then many FO shooters would leave the sport. There was strong and concerted effort from many of us NOT to allow pedestal rests as it was too close to FO.
Sadly the use of pedestal rests was allowed and now we see shooters in FS using expensive Seb and like rests, wide forends on stocks and the only difference between FS and FO was the calibre, projectile, powder restrictions and the 1kg trigger which to start with was the same as TR, 1.5kg.
FS was meant to be an entry level for scope shooters but rapidly moved to the point where it had to be given 2 levels such was the impact of the too free rulings.
No doubt others will disagree, but that is, as I said, only a rough analysis.
Since then there has been a huge resurgent in FO shooters and numbers are now quite high and doing quite nicely and is a big bonus to the NRAA bottom line and shooting in general.
FS still needs to be using bi-pods and, as I pointed out at the time, International rules demanded them. I was told that Australia would never shoot Fclass internationally so pedestal rests was fine. Hence we now have FTR which meets International requirements so Aussies can compete overseas.
I will now retire to my bunker ready for incoming artillery. :roll:

Malcolm Hill
Posts: 328
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:40 pm
Location: Mid North S.A.

Re: F-Open to F-STD

#23 Postby Malcolm Hill » Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:31 am

Razer. I think you pretty much have the evolution of F standard covered and why it is at the current stage that we see it. It is no longer an affordable transition from target rifle like it was intended to be, with the cost to set up a top line competitive rifle probably double what it should be if it was left as a bipod only discipline. The pushing the limit on F standard rules has however put some very accurate rifles on the mound and when driven by good shooters scores can be exceptional. I think this has helped F Open numbers increase in recent times as I have seen a lot of names that started in standard and not stay there very long before going to Open, where you only have to be half as good with wind reading to end up with the same score. Regards Malcolm.

Jase PTRC
Posts: 221
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2014 11:15 pm
Location: Adelaide SA "PTRC"

Re: F-Open to F-STD

#24 Postby Jase PTRC » Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:50 am

I personally think the 1 kg trigger forces shooters to be more careful with trigger pull, you can get away with more on a light trigger whether free recoiling or not. I Shoot STD but i have shot in our clubs F open team form time to time and feel some of the triggers are too light to the point i feel disconnected from the rifle. Using a 1kg trigger forces you to be more consistent than a trigger that only needs to be breathed on to set it off and in my opinion and i feel it does help to level the playing field.

Matt P
Posts: 1512
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 8:22 pm

Re: F-Open to F-STD

#25 Postby Matt P » Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:11 am

Razer wrote:Rough analysis. About 2003 FO was dying due to OPM's not catering for it and the NRAA engaged 3 people, set up as a committee to revise the rules pertaining to FS. They decided to allow pedestal rests as many FO shooters already had them and from what I can gather it was decided if the bi-pod only rule was retained then many FO shooters would leave the sport. There was strong and concerted effort from many of us NOT to allow pedestal rests as it was too close to FO.
Sadly the use of pedestal rests was allowed and now we see shooters in FS using expensive Seb and like rests, wide forends on stocks and the only difference between FS and FO was the calibre, projectile, powder restrictions and the 1kg trigger which to start with was the same as TR, 1.5kg.
FS was meant to be an entry level for scope shooters but rapidly moved to the point where it had to be given 2 levels such was the impact of the too free rulings.
No doubt others will disagree, but that is, as I said, only a rough analysis.
Since then there has been a huge resurgent in FO shooters and numbers are now quite high and doing quite nicely and is a big bonus to the NRAA bottom line and shooting in general.
FS still needs to be using bi-pods and, as I pointed out at the time, International rules demanded them. I was told that Australia would never shoot Fclass internationally so pedestal rests was fine. Hence we now have FTR which meets International requirements so Aussies can compete overseas.
I will now retire to my bunker ready for incoming artillery. :roll:

Razor
That's not quite how it happened, prior to the review there were a few FO style FS set-ups starting to show up around the place,(mainly at club level) probably the highest profile at the time was Bill Parow from Victoria, who read the then current rules and built a rifle to suit him and the rules of the time and went on to win a few Queens. At the time of the review the FS committee didn't want to outlaw anyone that has complied under the then current rules. I was on the FO committee and we had no input into the FS rules, in fact we were told by many to butt out and worry about your own lot !!!
Regards
Matt P

Quick
Posts: 1134
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:09 pm
Location: Yanchep, Western Australia
Contact:

Re: F-Open to F-STD

#26 Postby Quick » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:13 am

One thing I do think is that the heavier trigger makes you follow through much more than the light trigger.

I think that the current popularity of FO and F/TR will continue to grow and FS will still be around for a while and I haven't heard much from people on the mound about the trigger weight.
Shaun aka 'Quick'
Yanchep, Western Australia

308 Win F/TR & F-S
7mm F-Open Shooter.

AlanF
Posts: 7495
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:22 pm
Location: Maffra, Vic

Re: F-Open to F-STD

#27 Postby AlanF » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:33 am

Malcolm Hill wrote:...I have seen a lot of names that started in standard and not stay there very long before going to Open, where you only have to be half as good with wind reading to end up with the same score...

But changing to F-Open wouldn't necessarily make them more competitive, because they would then be competing with other F-Open rifles.

BTW I've seen a few examples of shooters changing from F-Std to F-Open who've struggled with wind reading because they had developed an automatic sense of how much to adjust for wind in F-Std, and found themselves over-compensating with the slipperier F-Open bullets :D .

johnk
Posts: 2211
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:55 pm
Location: Brisbane

Re: F-Open to F-STD

#28 Postby johnk » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:35 am

Let's not forget that F Standard would not have existed if US shooters hadn't demanded that the non-open division be shot with unlimited bullet & trigger weights. Australia & the founders of the sport, Canada, were shooting rules largely consistent with each other. We opted to enshrine FS rules when ICFRA accepted that the rifle would be the equivalent of a US Palma rifle, not an international one.

DenisA
Posts: 1526
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:00 pm
Location: Sunshine Coast, QLD

Re: F-Open to F-STD

#29 Postby DenisA » Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:18 am

AlanF wrote:But changing to F-Open wouldn't necessarily make them more competitive, because they would then be competing with other F-Open rifles.

BTW I've seen a few examples of shooters changing from F-Std to F-Open who've struggled with wind reading because they had developed an automatic sense of how much to adjust for wind in F-Std, and found themselves over-compensating with the slipperier F-Open bullets :D .


It's been interesting experiencing the difference in windage adjustment for the same condition between F-STD and F-Open. It's taking some getting use to. Vaguely, without looking up technical info, I'd estimate that wind holds from 7mm bullets are doubled for the same condition going to STD. And I thought my days of shooting 4's were with a good load were gone!! :shock:
Your point there Alan is the same conversation that has been tossed around regarding two calibres or one in Open. The FSTD load is probably not unlike a 6BR except the 6BR is more accurate in consistent or void conditions.

I plan to shoot F-Open at major events and have decided to start running the Open rifle exclusively for 8 weeks prior to the events. Hopefully that's enough time to re-calibrate the wind-ometer.

A little off topic, but another point about the transition that's interesting to see is barrel wear. With every barrel I've ever shot (F-Open), the lands have started creeping forward after a couple of hundred rounds max.
I've been caught out by it a couple of times and to stop that from happening again, my process is to seat bullets long when loading, re-measure the free-bore and re-seat prior to ever shoot.
I have 500 rounds on the .308 barrel and the lands haven't moved. I now understand why so many F-STD shooters in past discussions have thought that Open shooters look too deeply in to things like that.
I find myself wasting a lot of time measuring free-bore at the moment.

plumbs7
Posts: 1124
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:32 am
Location: Dalby/ Tara Rifle Club

Re: F-Open to F-STD

#30 Postby plumbs7 » Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:46 am

AlanF wrote:
Malcolm Hill wrote:...I have seen a lot of names that started in standard and not stay there very long before going to Open, where you only have to be half as good with wind reading to end up with the same score...

But changing to F-Open wouldn't necessarily make them more competitive, because they would then be competing with other F-Open rifles.

BTW I've seen a few examples of shooters changing from F-Std to F-Open who've struggled with wind reading because they had developed an automatic sense of how much to adjust for wind in F-Std, and found themselves over-compensating with the slipperier F-Open bullets :D .


Yes I struggled with over reading the conditions when I first went to open ! It took some time to get use to it !


Return to “Equipment & Technical”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: GregW and 31 guests