Hi guys, I'm thinking of changing dies to a full length bushing die. But I'm unsure of what bushes to order with it. The fired cases measure .340 od and a fresh loaded round measures .337 od. Both are measured at the mouth of the neck.
One of my main questions (appart from bush sizes) am I wasting time with bushing dies if I don't neck turn? If I'm not then what do you guys recommend, a bush/ button die or just straight bush.
And to through another pigeon in, what about the neck/bump dies?
Thanks for any help.
Scott.
What bushings?
Moderator: Mod
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Barry Davies
- Posts: 1384
- Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:11 pm
Re: What bushings?
If you are using Lapua Cases a 335 bush will do the job or if you want a bit tighter neck a 334.
If you neck turn then a 334 or 335 providing you just skim the necks ( about 70% metal removed from around the neck
If you are using Winchester cases then 330 or 331. If neck turned a 330 or 329. Again just a skim on the neck.
Neck turning is a personal thing some do it some don't. I do.
It helps with both neck tension uniformity AND neck run out.
By Neck/bump die I assume you are referring to a Body Die. I use one every time but do not bump the shoulder ( Head space ) Again it's a matter of preference. At some time or other you are going to need to resize cases because they get sticky --maybe after about 5 or 6 reloads. A body die does this every time without overworking the case -- I trim maybe after 5 or 6 reloads and then it's only a few thou.
I do not consider a bushing die a waste of time, but not having had any experience with other dies ( such as a collett die ) I am probably a little biased.
My bushing die is purely a necking die NOT a sizing die --I size with the body die.
Barry
If you neck turn then a 334 or 335 providing you just skim the necks ( about 70% metal removed from around the neck
If you are using Winchester cases then 330 or 331. If neck turned a 330 or 329. Again just a skim on the neck.
Neck turning is a personal thing some do it some don't. I do.
It helps with both neck tension uniformity AND neck run out.
By Neck/bump die I assume you are referring to a Body Die. I use one every time but do not bump the shoulder ( Head space ) Again it's a matter of preference. At some time or other you are going to need to resize cases because they get sticky --maybe after about 5 or 6 reloads. A body die does this every time without overworking the case -- I trim maybe after 5 or 6 reloads and then it's only a few thou.
I do not consider a bushing die a waste of time, but not having had any experience with other dies ( such as a collett die ) I am probably a little biased.
My bushing die is purely a necking die NOT a sizing die --I size with the body die.
Barry
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johnk
- Posts: 2211
- Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:55 pm
- Location: Brisbane
Re: What bushings?
I'm waiting for big Keith to say it, but he hasn't so I'll ask if you have considered the Lee Collet die to neck size your cases. It's an inexpensive & when properly set up, foolproof way to build ammo with minimum runout. We could talk about it on the weekend, if you're shooting the City/Country.
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KHGS
- Posts: 934
- Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:46 am
- Location: Cowra NSW
Re: What bushings?
johnk wrote:I'm waiting for big Keith to say it, but he hasn't so I'll ask if you have considered the Lee Collet die to neck size your cases. It's an inexpensive & when properly set up, foolproof way to build ammo with minimum runout. We could talk about it on the weekend, if you're shooting the City/Country.
You beat me to it John. Most definitely the best way to go, I use collet dies with my F-Open rifles, I have many more important things to do with my life other than neck turn my cases!!!!
Keith H.
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scott/r
- Posts: 887
- Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:22 pm
- Location: far north brisbane
Re: What bushings?
Sorry, I should have mentioned that the cases are lapua and it's in 308.
Barry, I was referring to the foster neck die that bumps the shoulder as well. Basically it sounds like a full body but it doesn't touch the body. I found it on BRT website.
John, I have heard you guys talking up these dies a few times. So I went and picked one up. I went back through the pages and found the method that Keith described on how to set it up and it all but cut grooves in the neck of the first case. So I pulled it all apart again and gave the insides of the contractor fingers (for want of a better name) a good clean up. But I don't think I have it set right. So I might take you up on your offer and have a chat on the weekend if we get a chance.
Barry, I was referring to the foster neck die that bumps the shoulder as well. Basically it sounds like a full body but it doesn't touch the body. I found it on BRT website.
John, I have heard you guys talking up these dies a few times. So I went and picked one up. I went back through the pages and found the method that Keith described on how to set it up and it all but cut grooves in the neck of the first case. So I pulled it all apart again and gave the insides of the contractor fingers (for want of a better name) a good clean up. But I don't think I have it set right. So I might take you up on your offer and have a chat on the weekend if we get a chance.
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johnk
- Posts: 2211
- Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:55 pm
- Location: Brisbane
Re: What bushings?
Sure - meanwhile:
Using The Lee Collet Die.
I started using Lee collet dies when they first came on the market and have found that they are very good for the purposes for which they were designed .
I have found that there is a lack of understanding of how to use the die properly and as a result people fail to see the advantages that the die can deliver over standard neck sizing dies.
This is not the fault of the product , it is just a lack of understanding of how the die works and what it will feel like when you operate the press correctly.
Standard dies use a neck expanding ball on the decapping rod and size by extruding the neck through a hole and then drag the expander ball back through the inside neck.
The collet die achieves neck sizing by using a split collet to squeeze the outside of the case neck onto a central mandrel which has the decapping pin in it’s base .
One advantage is that there is no stretching or drawing action on the brass.
The inside neck diameter is controlled by the diameter of the mandrel and to some extent by the amount of adjustment of the die and the pressure applied to the press .
This results in less misalignment than can occur in standard dies because of any uneven neck wall thickness in the cases .
Cases will last longer in the neck area and require less trimming. If cases have very uneven neck wall thickness then this can cause problems for the collet die they definitely work smoother and more accurately with neck turned cases but it is not essential.
When you first receive the die unscrew the top cap and pull it apart check that everything is there also that the splits in the collet have nothing stuck in them then inspect the tapered surface on the top end of the collet and the internal taper of the insert to make sure there are no metal burs that might cause it to jamb.
Next get some good quality high pressure grease and put a smear onto the tapered surface of the collet .
Put it back together and screw it into the press just a few threads for now . The best type of press for this die is a press of moderate compound leverage that travels over centre .
Over centre means that when the ram reaches its full travel up it will stop and come back down a tiny amount even though the movement on the handle is continued through to the stop .
eg. is an RCBS Rockchucker.
This arrangement gives the best feel for a collet die sizing operation.
Place the shell holder in the ram and bring the ram up to full height then screw the die down until the collet skirt just touches on the shell holder , then lower the ram .
Take a case to be sized that has a clean neck inside and out and the mouth chamfered and place it in the shell holder.
Raise the ram gently feeling for resistance if none , lower the ram.
Screw the die down a bit at a time .
If you get lock up ( ram stops before going over centre) before the correct position is found then back it off and make sure the collet is loose and not jammed up in the die before continuing then raise the ram feeling for any resistance , keep repeating this until you feel the press handle resist against the case neck just at the top of the stroke as the press goes over centre and the handle kinder locks in place .
This takes much less force than a standard die and most people don’t believe any sizing has taken place .
Take the case out and try a projectile of the correct caliber to see how much sizing has taken place.
If it’s still too loose adjust the die down one eighth of a turn lock it finger tight only and try again .
Once the die is near the correct sizing position it takes very little movement of the die to achieve changes in neck seating tension .
This is where most people come undone , they move the die up and down too much and it either locks up or doesn’t size at all .
It will still size a case locking it up but you have no control over how much pressure is applied and some people lean on the press handle to the point of damaging the die. A press like the RCBS Rockchucker , that goes over centre each time gives you a definite stopping point for the ram and the pressure that you apply .
There is a small sweet spot for correct collet die adjustment and you must find it , once found , how sweet it is ! Advantages : With a press that travels over centre it is possible to adjust the neck seating tension within a very limited zone. No lubricant is normally required on the case necks during sizing .
If you still cant get enough neck tension to hold the bullet properly for a particular purpose then you will have to polish down the mandrel.
Be careful poilishing the mandrel down and only do it a bit at a time as a few thou can be removed pretty quickly if you overdo it.
You can't get extra neck tension by just applying more force. The amount of adjustment around the sweet spot is very limited and almost not noticable without carrying out tests.
For example , to go from a .001 neck tension to a .002 or .003 neck tension you would be talking about polishing down the mandrel.
There are some other advantages but I will leave you the pleasure of discovering them .
One disadvantage that I have found with the collet die is that it needs good vertical alignment of the case as it enters the die or case damage may result so go slowly.
Also some cases with a very thick internal base can cause problems with the mandrel coming in contact with the internal base before the sizing stroke is finished.
If pressure is continued the mandrel can push up against the top cap and cause damage . If you are getting lock up and cant get the right sizing sweet spot, then check that the mandrel is not too long for the case you can place a washer over the case and onto the shell holder and size down on that.
It will reduce the length of neck sized and give the mandrel more clearance. If it sizes Ok after adding the washer then the mandrel could be hitting the base.
This is not a usually problem once you learn how to use them .
The harder the brass is the more spring back it will have so very hard brass will exhibit less sizing than soft brass because it will spring away from the mandrel more. If this is happening to excess then use new cases or anneal the necks.
Freshly annealed brass can drag on the mandrel a bit in certain cases because it will spring back less and result in a tighter size diameter.
I have experienced it. I always use some dry lube on the inside and outside if I get any draging effect . Normally you dont need lube.
I make up a special batch 1/3 Fine Moly powder. 1/3 Pure graphite. 1/3 Aluminiumised lock graphite. Rub your fingers around the neck and It sticks very well to the necks by just dipping it in and out and tapping it to clear the inside neck . After a few cases it coats up the mandrel .
Other dry lubricants would work also.
Use the same process for normal neck sizing also.
I noticed a definite improvement in the accuracy of my 22-250Rem. as soon as I started using a Lee collet die instead of my original standard neck die.
Readers are encouraged to utilise the benefits of responsible reloading at all times. Although the author has taken care in the writing of these articles no responsibility can be taken by the author or publisher as a result of the use of this information.
John Valentine. © 21/01/2002.
Using The Lee Collet Die.
I started using Lee collet dies when they first came on the market and have found that they are very good for the purposes for which they were designed .
I have found that there is a lack of understanding of how to use the die properly and as a result people fail to see the advantages that the die can deliver over standard neck sizing dies.
This is not the fault of the product , it is just a lack of understanding of how the die works and what it will feel like when you operate the press correctly.
Standard dies use a neck expanding ball on the decapping rod and size by extruding the neck through a hole and then drag the expander ball back through the inside neck.
The collet die achieves neck sizing by using a split collet to squeeze the outside of the case neck onto a central mandrel which has the decapping pin in it’s base .
One advantage is that there is no stretching or drawing action on the brass.
The inside neck diameter is controlled by the diameter of the mandrel and to some extent by the amount of adjustment of the die and the pressure applied to the press .
This results in less misalignment than can occur in standard dies because of any uneven neck wall thickness in the cases .
Cases will last longer in the neck area and require less trimming. If cases have very uneven neck wall thickness then this can cause problems for the collet die they definitely work smoother and more accurately with neck turned cases but it is not essential.
When you first receive the die unscrew the top cap and pull it apart check that everything is there also that the splits in the collet have nothing stuck in them then inspect the tapered surface on the top end of the collet and the internal taper of the insert to make sure there are no metal burs that might cause it to jamb.
Next get some good quality high pressure grease and put a smear onto the tapered surface of the collet .
Put it back together and screw it into the press just a few threads for now . The best type of press for this die is a press of moderate compound leverage that travels over centre .
Over centre means that when the ram reaches its full travel up it will stop and come back down a tiny amount even though the movement on the handle is continued through to the stop .
eg. is an RCBS Rockchucker.
This arrangement gives the best feel for a collet die sizing operation.
Place the shell holder in the ram and bring the ram up to full height then screw the die down until the collet skirt just touches on the shell holder , then lower the ram .
Take a case to be sized that has a clean neck inside and out and the mouth chamfered and place it in the shell holder.
Raise the ram gently feeling for resistance if none , lower the ram.
Screw the die down a bit at a time .
If you get lock up ( ram stops before going over centre) before the correct position is found then back it off and make sure the collet is loose and not jammed up in the die before continuing then raise the ram feeling for any resistance , keep repeating this until you feel the press handle resist against the case neck just at the top of the stroke as the press goes over centre and the handle kinder locks in place .
This takes much less force than a standard die and most people don’t believe any sizing has taken place .
Take the case out and try a projectile of the correct caliber to see how much sizing has taken place.
If it’s still too loose adjust the die down one eighth of a turn lock it finger tight only and try again .
Once the die is near the correct sizing position it takes very little movement of the die to achieve changes in neck seating tension .
This is where most people come undone , they move the die up and down too much and it either locks up or doesn’t size at all .
It will still size a case locking it up but you have no control over how much pressure is applied and some people lean on the press handle to the point of damaging the die. A press like the RCBS Rockchucker , that goes over centre each time gives you a definite stopping point for the ram and the pressure that you apply .
There is a small sweet spot for correct collet die adjustment and you must find it , once found , how sweet it is ! Advantages : With a press that travels over centre it is possible to adjust the neck seating tension within a very limited zone. No lubricant is normally required on the case necks during sizing .
If you still cant get enough neck tension to hold the bullet properly for a particular purpose then you will have to polish down the mandrel.
Be careful poilishing the mandrel down and only do it a bit at a time as a few thou can be removed pretty quickly if you overdo it.
You can't get extra neck tension by just applying more force. The amount of adjustment around the sweet spot is very limited and almost not noticable without carrying out tests.
For example , to go from a .001 neck tension to a .002 or .003 neck tension you would be talking about polishing down the mandrel.
There are some other advantages but I will leave you the pleasure of discovering them .
One disadvantage that I have found with the collet die is that it needs good vertical alignment of the case as it enters the die or case damage may result so go slowly.
Also some cases with a very thick internal base can cause problems with the mandrel coming in contact with the internal base before the sizing stroke is finished.
If pressure is continued the mandrel can push up against the top cap and cause damage . If you are getting lock up and cant get the right sizing sweet spot, then check that the mandrel is not too long for the case you can place a washer over the case and onto the shell holder and size down on that.
It will reduce the length of neck sized and give the mandrel more clearance. If it sizes Ok after adding the washer then the mandrel could be hitting the base.
This is not a usually problem once you learn how to use them .
The harder the brass is the more spring back it will have so very hard brass will exhibit less sizing than soft brass because it will spring away from the mandrel more. If this is happening to excess then use new cases or anneal the necks.
Freshly annealed brass can drag on the mandrel a bit in certain cases because it will spring back less and result in a tighter size diameter.
I have experienced it. I always use some dry lube on the inside and outside if I get any draging effect . Normally you dont need lube.
I make up a special batch 1/3 Fine Moly powder. 1/3 Pure graphite. 1/3 Aluminiumised lock graphite. Rub your fingers around the neck and It sticks very well to the necks by just dipping it in and out and tapping it to clear the inside neck . After a few cases it coats up the mandrel .
Other dry lubricants would work also.
Use the same process for normal neck sizing also.
I noticed a definite improvement in the accuracy of my 22-250Rem. as soon as I started using a Lee collet die instead of my original standard neck die.
Readers are encouraged to utilise the benefits of responsible reloading at all times. Although the author has taken care in the writing of these articles no responsibility can be taken by the author or publisher as a result of the use of this information.
John Valentine. © 21/01/2002.
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scott/r
- Posts: 887
- Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:22 pm
- Location: far north brisbane
-
scott/r
- Posts: 887
- Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:22 pm
- Location: far north brisbane
Re: What bushings?
I ended up with a forster bushing neck bump die. It neck sizes and bumps the shoulder, but doesn't resize the bodyof the case. And after the advise from here I ended up with a .335 and a .356 bush. Using the .355 bush and bumping the shoulders a thou, I did the retest on the loads that have looked really good. Using the magneto speed chrony I recently picked up, I came up with some pretty cool numbers.
With a load of 45.0 grn 2206h / 155.5 bergers touching the lands / br2 primers and non neck turned lapua cases, these numbers came up.
With a load of 45.0 grn 2206h / 155.5 bergers touching the lands / br2 primers and non neck turned lapua cases, these numbers came up.
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wilson85
- Posts: 102
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scott/r
- Posts: 887
- Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:22 pm
- Location: far north brisbane
Re: What bushings?
Yeh mate. Especially when you include the previous tests at 3058, 3068, 3072, 3074, 3072
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