To hold or dial wind??

[DenisA]

I am an advocate for dialling big changes and holding for minor.

That said of late I have been dialling even minor changes and may hold within the X which was the case for a recent shoot for 60.9 @ 500yds.

Denis, what I think dialling will do for you is make wind changes relate to a change in MOA, after a while on a range I can start to develop a pattern and remember things, which can help with major changes and dialling to previous settings for that condition.

I think its easy to remember a 1.25MOA scope setting then it is to remember where you aimed at the target last.

That's a good perspective thanks Jas. Just to clarify though, I don't use any position on the target other than aiming at centre. Everything is based off the reticle and therefore I do think of each shot in MOA voicing it in my mind each time.

If your using 1MOA subtensions and don't wind, surely you must be holding off?

Yes but as Alan has said there are 2 ways of holding off.
1. Using the centre of the crosshair and changing the hold position on the target or:-
2. Using the required reticle subtension (or in between) and placing it over the centre of the X ring.

I use the 2nd which means that my hold off in MOA is always obvious regardless of target size or ring size.

[AlanF]

In relation to team shooting, I have experienced a few different methods, and think the coach should adjust the knobs, because instructing the shooter to hold off has too much risk of communication mistakes.

Eliminates communication errors but introduces the possibility of winding the wrong way. In individual competition I prefer to aim off for just this reason. Having started off with iron sights winding the scope knobs isn't second nature. When Noel O was coaching the Vic MR team he had a picture of the target and put a magnet on the point of aim - worked well.

It depends on the level of the competition I guess. If a coach is susceptible to winding the wrong way then you'd question his suitability for international competition. I have been coached with Noel's magnet, and think the system is not precise enough for top level teams competition. It requires the coach to position the magnet as best he can, then the shooter to copy that position with the cross-hair as best he can, so adds an extra opportunity for small errors.

[jasmay]

In relation to team shooting, I have experienced a few different methods, and think the coach should adjust the knobs, because instructing the shooter to hold off has too much risk of communication mistakes.

Eliminates communication errors but introduces the possibility of winding the wrong way. In individual competition I prefer to aim off for just this reason. Having started off with iron sights winding the scope knobs isn't second nature. When Noel O was coaching the Vic MR team he had a picture of the target and put a magnet on the point of aim - worked well.

It depends on the level of the competition I guess. If a coach is susceptible to winding the wrong way then you'd question his suitability for international competition. I have been coached with Noel's magnet, and think the system is not precise enough for top level teams competition. It requires the coach to position the magnet as best he can, then the shooter to copy that position with the cross-hair as best he can, so adds an extra opportunity for small errors.

It's also time consuming, I have seen it in action and by the time the coach has positioned the magnet, shooter has looked at it and registered the position, put head back on gun, positioned scope hairs and made himself comfortable enough to make the shot, too much time has elapsed.

With winding, shooter keep rifle on centre and can make the shot within a couple of seconds of a dial being adjusted.

[jasmay]

Yes but as Alan has said there are 2 ways of holding off.
1. Using the centre of the crosshair and changing the hold position on the target or:-
2. Using the required reticle subtension (or in between) and placing it over the centre of the X ring.

I use the 2nd which means that my hold off in MOA is always obvious regardless of target size or ring size.

I don't quite follow, I think I'd need to see how its done. how exactly do you make a 1/8 or 1/4 adjustment?

[DenisA]

Yes but as Alan has said there are 2 ways of holding off.
1. Using the centre of the crosshair and changing the hold position on the target or:-
2. Using the required reticle subtension (or in between) and placing it over the centre of the X ring.

I use the 2nd which means that my hold off in MOA is always obvious regardless of target size or ring size.

I don't quite follow, I think I'd need to see how its done. how exactly do you make a 1/8 or 1/4 adjustment?

By holding the reticule 1/4 of the way or less between the crosshair and first subtension, over the centre of the X ring.

[DenisA]

What about optical error?

If I'm holding off in a heavy wind, using a subtension closer to the edge of the sight picture, does that induce any more optical error than using the centre of the sight picture?

[RDavies]

Hey Dennis
I think it all relates to the state of your shed at home, if it's tidy and everything is in it's place you might prefer to wind every shot, if it's like my shed which has a more "random" order you will be more comfortable aiming off

Must be why I am a certified winder. My ballistics lab at home is like a BMW factory with its order and efficiency.

[RDavies]

Denis,

I find that I dial in enough wind for the condition I want to shoot in. Then as it picks up or drops off I aim off appropriately.

I feel comfortable with +2MOA/-2MOA around that initial dialled on wind.

If the wind condition moves through my shoot, and it exceeds the 2MOA, only then will I tweak the turret.

As for team shooting, I subscribe to winding every shot. For the following reasons:
1. The shooter has an easier time of centrering the shot and firing (less to think about, quicker to get shot away)
2. When dialling the turret, you know exactly how much wind has been adjusted
3. When dialling, you can easily confirm how much wind you are working with - this reinforces to the coach in MOA, how much wind is in play between shots
4 If a shooter is told to aim off, there will always be a level of ambiguity as to how much the shooter aimed off, and in mirage conditions the shooter will not as accurately make those hold off's for you.

I agree with what you say about team shooting. Some of us shooters get confused with calls of 5 O'clock 6 ring, 6 O'clock 5 ring, etc etc. Maybe those smarter and better than me can do it naturally but I do remember check scoring for elite shooters from other countries overseas who also messed things up with call confusion.
As for individual shooting, there is only one way to do it. The way which works best for you.
We all think in different ways in many things in life and when it come to hold or dial, there are many of us who are 100% sure that what the other bloke is doing is not as good and both are 100% right. His brain might work in a different way to yours and that is that. I click 99% of the time as that is how my thought process works. There are better shooters out there who hold 99% of the time because it suits their thought process. Some people are artistic, some good dancers, some mechanically inclined, some good writers, some good people managers and hopefully they pick a profession or sport which suits their strengths, but as we see, all to often people take on things which don't suit their natural abilities and weaknesses and they never rise to the top of their game.

[Tim N]

Rod
I've seen your BMW type balistics lab and it's much like my place...that should make you a holder offer type shot
Sometimes you have to hold off-Especially after a rifle lands on its scope from table height on the last day of a queens.

[Tim N]

Most of the team shooting I have done included hold off calls which were only ever right/left six or X ring, with elevation always adjusted by the coach.
If elevation was also in the hold off that might get confusing.
After doing some plotting of targets recently I've noticed it's not a skill everyone has to accurately plot what's seen so I'd guess the same innacuracies could transfer when making complex hold off calls in a team situation.
I like shooting with the hold off method as it's quicker when needed.

[johnk]

I've always preferred the shooter to do the elevation changes, on the call of the plotter between shots if possible. That way, you have at least one person to verify if it's been wound the correct way.

[Chopper]

it would be interesting to ask iron sight users ,FB, what they think of aiming off, ?, with limited optics, if a shooter aimed off in FB or FC in my day , he was given the Arse , in Teams matches im talking, it showed no confidence in the coach an a zero became lost, and hell was to play , Ive seen it, A Good Zero and ability to read left and right is the way to go , My thoughts, So I say , crank them and use your Zero as home base when the Big winds come from left and right, or even the little left and right, the targets are tight now, so that boil or drift from left and right need a home base Zero, NOT confusions with aim off, My thoughts. Chop

[johnk]

Upper echelon 300 Metre & smallbore shooters regularly aim off.

[plumbs7]

Hey Dennis
I think it all relates to the state of your shed at home, if it's tidy and everything is in it's place you might prefer to wind every shot, if it's like my shed which has a more "random" order you will be more comfortable aiming off

Must be why I am a certified winder. My ballistics lab at home is like a BMW factory with its order and efficiency.

Wow! Now I know why I hold off! Feel much better now I know !