To hold or dial wind??

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DenisA
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To hold or dial wind??

#1 Postby DenisA » Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:10 am

I hold off for wind 100%. My scopes are zero'd at 100y. I use reticles with 1moa subtensions and stay on the magnification the subtensions are calibrated to. Unless its extremely mild conditions and a little overcast, then I'll zoom up to max magnification.
The further out I go, I will wind up to 3/4 left on at 1000y to zero out spindrift.

The majority of F-class shooters I speak to dial the bulk of the wind and basically just change their hold within the 6 ring.

The majority of team shooting I hear about involves coaches winding the shooters turrets. I've only shot a couple of teams matches. In the first, the wind coach called out a hold on the target rings. In the second, the coach dialled my turret.

I feel comfortable knowing that my wind zero is spot on, that I can make quick hold changes without losing my focus on the conditions and if I get a direction change that won't come back I can make a fast decision. Thinking about what I'd be like dialling wind, I get concerned that I'd drop bulk points by losing track of what I'd dialled, forgetting to dial or holding on top of a dialled setting.

My question is, which do you guys prefer and why, to hold off 100% or to wind and hold the within the 6 ring?

Should I try to change my ways?

Barry Davies
Posts: 1383
Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:11 pm

Re: To hold or dial wind??

#2 Postby Barry Davies » Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:25 am

" Should I try to change my ways? "
Depends upon whether you are winning or not.

DenisA
Posts: 1526
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:00 pm
Location: Sunshine Coast, QLD

Re: To hold or dial wind??

#3 Postby DenisA » Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:29 am

Barry Davies wrote:" Should I try to change my ways? "
Depends upon whether you are winning or not.


Barry, I'm Mr Average. Consistently middle of the pack, sometimes better and sometimes worse.

Tim N
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Location: Branxton NSW

Re: To hold or dial wind??

#4 Postby Tim N » Wed Dec 28, 2016 12:04 pm

Hey Dennis
I think it all relates to the state of your shed at home, if it's tidy and everything is in it's place you might prefer to wind every shot, if it's like my shed which has a more "random" order you will be more comfortable aiming off :D
We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training. Archilochos 680-645 BC

Barry Davies
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Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:11 pm

Re: To hold or dial wind??

#5 Postby Barry Davies » Wed Dec 28, 2016 12:22 pm

Then you should Analyse each performance on it's merits.
For instance I use both methods depending on the prevailing conditions.
On easy ranges you can " dial in " and then hold off.
On difficult ranges where every shot becomes a sighter you simply have to screw the dial.
You cannot afford to be concerned about whether you have dialed the correct amount or not --sure way to lose points.
Only practice at dialing will give you confidence to go with it.
Not much point learning to shoot in a wind tunnel and then expecting to achieve great things on an open range like Malabar or Bendigo if you cannot adjust your tactics to suit the conditions that prevail.

jasmay
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Re: To hold or dial wind??

#6 Postby jasmay » Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:26 pm

I am an advocate for dialling big changes and holding for minor.

That said of late I have been dialling even minor changes and may hold within the X which was the case for a recent shoot for 60.9 @ 500yds.

Denis, what I think dialling will do for you is make wind changes relate to a change in MOA, after a while on a range I can start to develop a pattern and remember things, which can help with major changes and dialling to previous settings for that condition.

I think its easy to remember a 1.25MOA scope setting then it is to remember where you aimed at the target last.

DenisA
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Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:00 pm
Location: Sunshine Coast, QLD

Re: To hold or dial wind??

#7 Postby DenisA » Wed Dec 28, 2016 2:30 pm

jasmay wrote:I am an advocate for dialling big changes and holding for minor.

That said of late I have been dialling even minor changes and may hold within the X which was the case for a recent shoot for 60.9 @ 500yds.

Denis, what I think dialling will do for you is make wind changes relate to a change in MOA, after a while on a range I can start to develop a pattern and remember things, which can help with major changes and dialling to previous settings for that condition.

I think its easy to remember a 1.25MOA scope setting then it is to remember where you aimed at the target last.


That's a good perspective thanks Jas. Just to clarify though, I don't use any position on the target other than aiming at centre. Everything is based off the reticle and therefore I do think of each shot in MOA voicing it in my mind each time.

plumbs7
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Location: Dalby/ Tara Rifle Club

Re: To hold or dial wind??

#8 Postby plumbs7 » Wed Dec 28, 2016 2:55 pm

DenisA wrote:
jasmay wrote:I am an advocate for dialling big changes and holding for minor.

That said of late I have been dialling even minor changes and may hold within the X which was the case for a recent shoot for 60.9 @ 500yds.

Denis, what I think dialling will do for you is make wind changes relate to a change in MOA, after a while on a range I can start to develop a pattern and remember things, which can help with major changes and dialling to previous settings for that condition.

I think its easy to remember a 1.25MOA scope setting then it is to remember where you aimed at the target last.


That's a good perspective thanks Jas. Just to clarify though, I don't use any position on the target other than aiming at centre. Everything is based off the reticle and therefore I do think of each shot in MOA voicing it in my mind each time.


Hi Denis , depends on the conditions I guess as what I do . First sighter , if I'm not gas bagging and doing what I should be doing . I'll try and watch the wind cycles and have a correction in mind . I'm always going for centre first shot .
But yes , most times , I dial for x first shot and hold from there . I'll dial again most times to correct a change on the fly. I will even sacrifice a 5 as a sighter in real bad conditions and just aim offexact opposite to the rings . Teams are different in that is the best way to do it is to dial and the shooter can just concentrate on their job of pulling a good shot !

However individually, I think dialling is too slow at times . Although I know of someone who came 4 th at a Queens just recently who does just fine dialling !
So I guess depending on the range and conditions maybe all of the above !

johnk
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Location: Brisbane

Re: To hold or dial wind??

#9 Postby johnk » Wed Dec 28, 2016 3:29 pm

Because I came to F class through Match Rifle where changes can be significant & quick, I'm inclined to hold off rather than dial, but I'm not dogmatic about either. What I hate is sighting with a centre hold because you have to guess WTF the centre is. I prefer to adjust my zero for the 6 ring on one side.

Don't forget that there is a mid ground when you're dealing with changeable conditions - aim off for the shot, then adjust you scope for that aim off after you've fired.

bartman007
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Location: Gippsland

Re: To hold or dial wind??

#10 Postby bartman007 » Wed Dec 28, 2016 3:37 pm

Denis,

I find that I dial in enough wind for the condition I want to shoot in. Then as it picks up or drops off I aim off appropriately.

I feel comfortable with +2MOA/-2MOA around that initial dialled on wind.

If the wind condition moves through my shoot, and it exceeds the 2MOA, only then will I tweak the turret.

As for team shooting, I subscribe to winding every shot. For the following reasons:
1. The shooter has an easier time of centrering the shot and firing (less to think about, quicker to get shot away)
2. When dialling the turret, you know exactly how much wind has been adjusted
3. When dialling, you can easily confirm how much wind you are working with - this reinforces to the coach in MOA, how much wind is in play between shots
4 If a shooter is told to aim off, there will always be a level of ambiguity as to how much the shooter aimed off, and in mirage conditions the shooter will not as accurately make those hold off's for you.
###

mike H
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Location: JUNEE NSW

Re: To hold or dial wind??

#11 Postby mike H » Wed Dec 28, 2016 8:17 pm

bartman007 wrote:Denis,

I find that I dial in enough wind for the condition I want to shoot in. Then as it picks up or drops off I aim off appropriately.

I feel comfortable with +2MOA/-2MOA around that initial dialled on wind.

If the wind condition moves through my shoot, and it exceeds the 2MOA, only then will I tweak the turret.

As for team shooting, I subscribe to winding every shot. For the following reasons:
1. The shooter has an easier time of centrering the shot and firing (less to think about, quicker to get shot away)
2. When dialling the turret, you know exactly how much wind has been adjusted
3. When dialling, you can easily confirm how much wind you are working with - this reinforces to the coach in MOA, how much wind is in play between shots
4 If a shooter is told to aim off, there will always be a level of ambiguity as to how much the shooter aimed off, and in mirage conditions the shooter will not as accurately make those hold off's for you.

I am not so sure about this in team shooting,while the coach is winding,the shooter could have got a shot away,another thing,from a shooters perspective,it is not hard to aim off on a line or half way,to suggest that a shooter will fire a more dependable shot if they centre aim is wishfull thinking.It seems that things have changed,in the search for perfection,there is no trust in the shooters ability and judgement,yet there must be.
Mike.

AlanF
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Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:22 pm
Location: Maffra, Vic

Re: To hold or dial wind??

#12 Postby AlanF » Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:18 pm

I try to hold off 100% of the wind, even if it means aiming off the target. The advantages are that it gives a more graphical perspective to wind allowance than numbers, and is good for bracketing and fast response to big changes. Not sure if anyone has mentioned this but there are two distinct methods of holding off (1) Use the lines on target (2) use tick marks on the scope cross-hair. Both have advantages. I use method (1).

In relation to team shooting, I have experienced a few different methods, and think the coach should adjust the knobs, because instructing the shooter to hold off has too much risk of communication mistakes.

bartman007
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Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:06 pm
Location: Gippsland

Re: To hold or dial wind??

#13 Postby bartman007 » Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:28 pm

,to suggest that a shooter will fire a more dependable shot if they centre aim is wishfull thinking.It seems that things have changed,in the search for perfection,there is no trust in the shooters ability and judgement,yet there must be.


An interesting interpretation of what I have said. To clarify my reasons for my comments in regard to team shooting:

1. It must be easier for a shooter to only have one point of aim. Therefore one less thing to concentrate on when taking aim.
2. I find it easier to take a shot under a coach, when I have focused the scope and set paralax, and aim dead centre.

In regard to team shooting, we are striving for perfection, in an imperfect environment (human/equipment). So any processes that can be simplified to improve the overall score should be trialled and if shown to be of benefit, adopted. There is no perfect coaching style, as there is no single way of cleaning a rifle.

Aiming off will work in some situations, and can provide a slightly quicker time between shots. This has proven a good tactic in State Team Competition over the last couple of shoots, however it didn't win all ranges and competitions. Therefore it is not clear that it is the single perfect method of coaching, that we should adopt.

In regard for trust in a shooters ability, they are selected on their ability to take the same shot over and over. This is a simplistic view of what it takes to be a shooter, I for one will never underestimate what a shooter brings to the line:
1. A well tuned rifle that has taken them weeks to run in and fine tune
2. Rest and Bag suited to the terrain they will compete on
3. Health (physical and mental)
4. Consistency in system used when cycling through shots
5. Ability to concentrate for long periods of time (20+ shots)
6. Consistency in reloading and barrel cleaning
etc etc
###

jasmay
Posts: 1291
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:26 pm

Re: To hold or dial wind??

#14 Postby jasmay » Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:08 pm

DenisA wrote:
jasmay wrote:I am an advocate for dialling big changes and holding for minor.

That said of late I have been dialling even minor changes and may hold within the X which was the case for a recent shoot for 60.9 @ 500yds.

Denis, what I think dialling will do for you is make wind changes relate to a change in MOA, after a while on a range I can start to develop a pattern and remember things, which can help with major changes and dialling to previous settings for that condition.

I think its easy to remember a 1.25MOA scope setting then it is to remember where you aimed at the target last.


That's a good perspective thanks Jas. Just to clarify though, I don't use any position on the target other than aiming at centre. Everything is based off the reticle and therefore I do think of each shot in MOA voicing it in my mind each time.


If your using 1MOA subtensions and don't wind, surely you must be holding off?

bsouthernau
Posts: 696
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:31 pm

Re: To hold or dial wind??

#15 Postby bsouthernau » Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:26 am

AlanF wrote:
In relation to team shooting, I have experienced a few different methods, and think the coach should adjust the knobs, because instructing the shooter to hold off has too much risk of communication mistakes.


Eliminates communication errors but introduces the possibility of winding the wrong way. In individual competition I prefer to aim off for just this reason. Having started off with iron sights winding the scope knobs isn't second nature. When Noel O was coaching the Vic MR team he had a picture of the target and put a magnet on the point of aim - worked well.


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