OK so I am new to F Class, What scope do I need??

Get or give advice on equipment, reloading and other technical issues.

Moderator: Mod

Message
Author
AlanF
Posts: 6796
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:22 pm
Location: Maffra, Vic

#16 Postby AlanF » Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:43 pm

Ben,

I'm starting to warm to the idea of a T24 to give some flexibilty. It would probably be better than my 6.5-20X Leupold in good conditions (a) higher magnification and (b) 1/8 min clicks.

However on another matter... I can't fault what Peter is saying about a heavy scope and high C. of G. When you say "less stable", in what way? If it was a vehicle going around corners, or negotiating side slopes yes, but this is something which is on a level surface moving in a straight line. If the concern is that the torque effect will cause it to topple sideways, I think the increased moment of inertia caused by the heavy scope will actually make that LESS likely?

Alan

pjifl
Posts: 611
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:15 pm
Location: Innisfail, Far North QLD.

OK so I am new to F Class, What scope do I need??

#17 Postby pjifl » Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:24 am

On the question of stability, there are two things that can be done - but they do not correspond with the traditional stock.

1/ A very wide flat forend

2/ Two wings to the forend. These can also be raised to place friction in the plane of the bore.

To comply with front rest rules may need some thought, but it can be done. Personally, I dont care if others do not comply here.

Once leveled, cant also becomes a non issue for the duration of the shoot.

I am simply using a wide flat forend. Can I suggest, anyone starting F class shooting should not rush and order or make a really nice traditional stock for a while. Your thoughts may change and it is psycologically difficult to mutate a stock if it is a real work of art. I have made some really nice fullbore stocks which now sit in the cupboard - now use crappy looking ones but I am now also willing to cut and paste.

On the question of sighting method, I initially started using knobs for all wind adjustment. Then I concluded that I needed 1/8 or finer vertical clicks, and at this point the wind aim off to a graticule looked more attractive.

I think the click value on the scope partly determines how people wind compensate.

No one has mentioned preferred click value on a scope for the Champ target. What do others prefer ????

I think 1/8 is a must vertically and would not consider a 1/4, 1/4 scope.

My current thinking is that I would prefer 1/8 vertical and 1/4 horizontal clicks. Such a beast does exist - its on my table at the moment.

Peter Smith

bjld
Posts: 160
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:40 am
Location: South Australia

#18 Postby bjld » Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:53 am

I use 1/8MOA adjustments only. 1/4MOA just isn't up to the task when the X-ring is 1/2MOA. A 1/4MOA adjustment will take you from the centre to the edge. The 1/8MOA adjustment lets you halve the distance.

Pity the NXS shooter with the 1/4MOA adjustment!

Ben

AlanF
Posts: 6796
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:22 pm
Location: Maffra, Vic

#19 Postby AlanF » Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:02 am

My Leupold has 1/4MOA and I agree its not fine enough. But I'm using aiming off almost exclusivley now for both windage and elevation. And if you have a systematic technique and train yourself to do it automatically, I think it is a better way to go, except perhaps when mirage is bad, and then the 1/4MOA clicks are probably good enough anyway.

Alan

Cochran
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 5:42 am
Location: Texas

#20 Postby Cochran » Tue Jul 12, 2005 12:36 pm

Hi guys

I have all my scopes mounted higher than anyone normally would. I use Bushmaster riser blocks to get the sight height up to at least 2.5 inches. I have never had any tracking problems because of it. I add/remove lead shot from the butt stocks untill I like the way the rifle rides on the rest, but it doesnt seem to make any difference how high the scope is.

Jeff

Lynn Otto
Posts: 1121
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:56 pm
Location: SA

#21 Postby Lynn Otto » Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:10 pm

Hi Guys

I'm currently looking at options for a scope for my new rifle and have decided (I think), on the NF 8-32 BR, forgoing the side adjustment of the NXS in order to have 1/8MOA adjustments. I feel this is crucial on the championship targets, as Ben said 1/4 moa puts you clean from one side to the other of the X ring, very unsettling. I use the sighters to get in the middle then hold for small changes in wind normally.

Lynn Otto

Tony Q
Posts: 1044
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:04 pm
Location: Adelaide (MBRC)

#22 Postby Tony Q » Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:34 pm

Based on the championship centers of ½ min to ¾ min to 1 min (depending on range) the ¼ click scope will only move you 1/4 to 1/3 to ½ of the 10 ring. However for those wishing to adjust rather than hold off the 1/8 click adjustments are psychologically better.

At 300 yds the x ring is 44mm (1.7 inches) the ¼ click is only equal to 19mm or 3/4 inch.

Even at 1000yds the ¼ click is only moving you 2.5 inches in a 10 inch X ring.

Its bad enough trying to pick up a ¼ min wind change let alone adjusting for it in time.

Having said that, its aslo bad enough holding off 1/8 min if your shots are starting to climb.

So, each to their own :wink:
MBRC F-Class standard ... and proud of it!

pjifl
Posts: 611
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:15 pm
Location: Innisfail, Far North QLD.

OK so I am new to F Class, What scope do I need??

#23 Postby pjifl » Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:05 pm

Some people seem to get by with 1/4 min adjustments on the champ target but I try to convince new shooters who are considering a new scope that they should have 1/8 min adjustments.

The way I see it, is that once you are nore than 1/8 min above or below centre, the wind reading has to be impossibly accurate to achieve a 10. I think it takes a while for those used to standard targets to realize how devastating this is - especially at longer ranges where there is more wind.

Since I aim off for wind, I do not need 1/8 horizontally since it is mainly for achieving an exact zero. But because I never aim off for elevation the 1/8 min here is essential. One scope I made had 1/10 min here.

Peter Smith.

Tony Q
Posts: 1044
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:04 pm
Location: Adelaide (MBRC)

#24 Postby Tony Q » Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:11 pm

there is some truth to what you say Peter.

But there is a LOT more that goes into getting a concistant center hold other than 1/4 or 1/8 clicks :wink:
MBRC F-Class standard ... and proud of it!

Lynn Otto
Posts: 1121
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:56 pm
Location: SA

#25 Postby Lynn Otto » Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:12 pm

Hi Tony

I can't see anything wrong with your numbers but what I know from painful experience is that if you have a group forming on one side of the X ring then the very slightest change will put you in the nine or worse. A 1/4moa adjustment will put you at about the same place on the other side of the X ring, from either position an 1/8 moa is needed to place the group in the middle which takes some of the pressure off of my skill to see those very small changes in the wind.

I've never used an 1/8 moa adjustment scope but I've sworn many times at the inability of my scope to give me those fine adjustments. For me it will be "try it and see", it may not be the answer but I won't know until I try.

Lynn Otto

Simon C
Posts: 422
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 9:43 pm
Location: Adelaide

#26 Postby Simon C » Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:06 pm

I'm not sure, but this might sound like a stupid comment.......

Are people actually able to hold to 1/8 MoA???

At 300m 1/8 is equivalent to 5.5mm and at 1000yds 32mm!!! Also being able to read wind for adjustments to 1/8 is a pretty mean feat in itself which is why i suspect the holdoff method is favoured. I can understand the use of 1/8 adjustment for elevation after shooting on these targets a couple of times, particulary in a wind shifting between 1-3 O'clock. However, I have found that the 1/4 adjustments are just fine for me at this stage with a F-Std rifle on a bipod..... I managed a 94 last weekend at 300m in shaiser conditions, no mirage and a tricky wind on my 3rd look at the champ target........ My focus at present is on maintiaining a consistent hold & sight picture, whilst keeping an eye on the wind and Tony Q as he wants to cut 2" off my barrel

Just my rookie thoughts...

Simon
"Aim small, miss small"

Simon

Tony Q
Posts: 1044
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:04 pm
Location: Adelaide (MBRC)

#27 Postby Tony Q » Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:40 pm

Hello Simon ...


You know what they say .... Long barrel .... Short etc, etc :twisted:


Hi Lynn .... YES! is all i can say, elevation can be adjusted on those F Class bi pods or Bench rests for those climbing shots. With the 1/8th windage, like i said before, it can be simply the psychological edge we sometimes look for.

Its all a learning game.
MBRC F-Class standard ... and proud of it!

bjld
Posts: 160
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:40 am
Location: South Australia

#28 Postby bjld » Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:30 am

The 1/8MOA adjustment is much more than a psychological edge when you are chasing possibles on the championship target. Imagine the following scenario:
The shots have been hitting very close to the centre spot at 300m, where the X-ring is 1/2MOA across (absolute distances have little to no meaning, so I'll stick to MOA). The light conditions change so you bring the elevation down 1/8MOA. If this was the incorrect adjustment and the shot was still going to waterline it falls 1/8MOA below the waterline and 1/8MOA above the bottom of the X-ring. At this point there is still 0.22MOA either side of the shot that falls within the X-ring. An adjustment of 1/4MOA would have taken the shot to the lower limit of the X-ring where there is no "buffer" for slight changes in wind speed.
The same scenario applies equally to 1/8MOA adjustments to wind. When I see my shots begin to drift ever so slightly to one side of the X-ring I put on 1/8MOA (in the case of very small changes in wind all that can be done is to react to them - I'm not suggesting that I can predict 1/8MOA changes). If the wind has returned to its previous speed and direction by the time I take the shot it is still within 1/8MOA horizontally of the centre spot and there is 0.22MOA above and below to forgive any small changes in elevation.
As I stated in a previous post, I learnt to shoot fullbore before being "converted". I prefer to quarter the target with the crosshairs and make all adjustments with my scope. I think this is more likely to produce possibles than holding off in tiny increments, although there are some proven exceptions eg Alan's double possible.

Regards
Ben

pjifl
Posts: 611
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:15 pm
Location: Innisfail, Far North QLD.

OK so I am new to F Class, What scope do I need??

#29 Postby pjifl » Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:56 pm

Whether you can hold 1/8 min or the rifle can shoot 1/8 min is irrelevant to the advantages of being able to move a group by 1/8 min.

With all the uncertainties, its a game of statistics and the ability to make small tweaks increases the chances of better scores.

I am only centering vertically because at longer range I believe I can react faster to wind shifts by aiming off for the wind - but I also have no doubt that a completely centered X is the most accurate aiming method by far - which is what Ben prefers - and I understand why.

Peter Smith.

Tony Q
Posts: 1044
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:04 pm
Location: Adelaide (MBRC)

#30 Postby Tony Q » Wed Jul 13, 2005 5:36 pm

Ben and Peter


I agree with both of you, some aim off and some use scope corrections and those who do would find it of benefit to have 1/8th clicks.

Each to their own.

I to have been in the same situation many times knowing full well if i adjust my 1/4 click NXS it could send me somewhere i dont want to be.

With my std 308 i find the 1.5kg trigger can cause a 1/8 shift in POA all by itself. For you guys its a completly different story :)

I also use a NF BR with 1/8 clicks on my .300 but to be honest ive never personally found it to be superior as i tend to aim off for all my windage and minor elevation adjustments.

Thats my way.

I dont think any particular way is the correct one, its an individual thing.

In regard to my comment about the psychological edge was a general term. We all know to well that if your psychologically switched on it can produce better results regardless.

To change the subject ... many years ago i remember comming across a 1/16 click scope at a benchrest shoot, does any one remember these???
MBRC F-Class standard ... and proud of it!


Return to “Equipment & Technical”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests