How to make laminate stock blanks?

Get or give advice on equipment, reloading and other technical issues.

Moderator: Mod

Message
Author
DenisA
Posts: 1526
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:00 pm
Location: Sunshine Coast, QLD

Re: How to make laminate stock blanks?

#16 Postby DenisA » Thu Mar 24, 2016 10:56 pm

Old Trev-39 wrote:Hi Denis,
As an add on to my previous post, my first stock before a milling machine I used a gouge, rasp, zec disk and sandpaper around a piece of 1''galv. water pipe to do barrel channel. It took some time but got it done and it is still in use. So if you have the time you do not need any expensive tools.
Cheers,
Trevor.


Hi Trev. Thanks for your input too. I do agree with you. I have built a stock the way you've described. Router, sockets wrapped in various grade sand paper, dremel, etc, using a free piece of spotted gum. It was my trial stock simply to get a feel of what's involved in stock making. Here's a thread to it where I have some progressive photo's up until its completion. viewtopic.php?f=26&t=5282

Once I learnt how it needs to be shot, I've found that it shoots REALLY well with free recoil technique. Here's my best target of last weekend on the hex system at Belmont. This was my .284W shooting 168 VLD's at 2940fps in my trial stock. The conditions were very mild and uniform. It was a good testament to the stocks ability to hold good vertical.
http://shooting.hexsystems.com.au/shooting/50117

Over the course of this build, I put it aside quite a few times very disheartened by the way certain things worked out. Mostly my frustrations were due to the lack of having the correct tools and feeling like I was wasting time. I loved the satisfaction especially once I worked out how it liked to be shot. I want to build more stocks for myself (improve on the last), though I'd be reluctant to start another with out at least a vertical mill and a table saw. These tools are not too far away.

Sounds like making your own laminate blank might be a way to heighten the satisfaction a little more.

Nathan P
Posts: 98
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:03 am

Re: How to make laminate stock blanks?

#17 Postby Nathan P » Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:08 am

Denis what was it about the stock that made you decide to shoot free recoil? I used to try and shoot my shehane the same way but the recoil made it seem like maybe it was a bad idea, but because the stock was made to suit Shooting a dasher free recoil it is still not ideal, hence why I'm
About to make a whole new stock for the shehane

pjifl
Posts: 883
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:15 pm
Location: Innisfail, Far North QLD.

Re: How to make laminate stock blanks?

#18 Postby pjifl » Fri Mar 25, 2016 1:10 pm

I have produced a record of a Rifle Stock Duplicating machine I once made and used.

It is now out in the weather making room for other machines and before long I will dismantle it.

This should occur in a few months time when the rainy season finishes and the mosquitoes thin out somewhat. Since I have no other photos of it, or its operation, I have made this record before its demise.

It is not superior to others but incorporates some unusual ideas and is easier for someone to make with limited equipment which may be of use.

https://sites.google.com/site/pjoptical ... fle-stocks

DenisA
Posts: 1526
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:00 pm
Location: Sunshine Coast, QLD

Re: How to make laminate stock blanks?

#19 Postby DenisA » Fri Mar 25, 2016 3:35 pm

Nathan P wrote:Denis what was it about the stock that made you decide to shoot free recoil? I used to try and shoot my shehane the same way but the recoil made it seem like maybe it was a bad idea, but because the stock was made to suit Shooting a dasher free recoil it is still not ideal, hence why I'm
About to make a whole new stock for the shehane


When I made this stock the technique I was using with my other stocks was firm downward pressure on the pistol grip and shoulder lightly touching the recoil pad. I allowed my shoulder to move backwards with the recoil. When I trialled the stock before final shaping, using that technique I was really disappointed with the way the rifle torqued in the front rest. I videoed that and put it in the previously mentioned thread. The whole front rest would move and vert was terrible on the target. The torque was so aggressive that you could see the scope flipping over to 10:30, 11:00.
I incorrectly thought that the amount of flex in the fore end was an issue too.

I pretty much gave up on the stock in terms of it being a shooter.

2 things brought me back to it only recently to give it another chance. Firstly, I read through the "Recoil and stock design" thread and really tried to understand the points that every one made. I had to quiz David on a few to completely understand the whys. The main information from that which helped was about fulcrum points and muzzle lift.
The second thing that convinced me to persist was that I handled other peoples McMillan F-class stocks on the range and realised that if anything, they had more flex in the fore ends yet they were being used by some of the highest scoring shooters. Watching these shooters, the common denominator was that none held the pistol grip at all and all got about 100mm of clean tracking in their recoil.

So that was my new style. Butt plate all the way in for maximum tracking, as much shoulder clearance as I could give the gun, no hand and no cheek contact. Instantly it worked though the group was 3/4MOA higher than my previous technique and stock combination. I've had to deduct 3/4MOA from all my range settings. now.
If I feel the butt pad contact my shoulder too early I can call and guarantee that the shots gone high and left. When the butt contacts my shoulder too early the fore end torques heavily still.

When the rifle tracks properly, it stays dead flat on the front bag the rifle comes to rest with the scope just off my glasses lens. To be honest, my glasses are getting tapped often.

I'm not saying this stock is a great design. Now understanding the lessons in the "recoil and stock design" thread and seeing the proof of some points in the way this stock handles, there are a few things I would change for MKII.
What I am saying though is that free recoil technique has made this less than ideal stock perform well.

I want to add that I've been using X-coil recoil pads. They are AMAZING. Like a pillow on your shoulder. The 300WSM and 230's on a fast load can be free recoiled without any discomfort.

Peter, thanks for the link. Those stocks look great. How long ago did you make your copier? It's such a shame to hear of machines like this not being used anymore and out in the weather. I'm sure there are people who would love to breathe some new life in to these :D . I do understand that they must be hard to let go of though, "just in case I want to make another stock". :lol:

DenisA
Posts: 1526
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:00 pm
Location: Sunshine Coast, QLD

Re: How to make laminate stock blanks?

#20 Postby DenisA » Sun Apr 03, 2016 9:56 am

Dave P wrote:You will find some interesting reading here
http://ausvarmint.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=19289&hilit=laminate+stock+making

Some very handy lads and willing to share knowledge as well.


Hi Dave, I finally had my Ausvarmint account approved and was able to read through this thread. Thank you very much for the link, what an inspiring thread. Answers so many questions.

Dave P
Posts: 153
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:10 am
Location: Hervey Bay Qld

Re: How to make laminate stock blanks?

#21 Postby Dave P » Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:16 pm

DenisA wrote:
Dave P wrote:You will find some interesting reading here
http://ausvarmint.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=19289&hilit=laminate+stock+making

Some very handy lads and willing to share knowledge as well.


Hi Dave, I finally had my Ausvarmint account approved and was able to read through this thread. Thank you very much for the link, what an inspiring thread. Answers so many questions.


No worries mate glad it was helpful.
I am certain that any questions you have via a pm would be answered without issue, a very giving group.

Theryinithou
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2020 7:35 pm

Re: How to make laminate stock blanks?

#22 Postby Theryinithou » Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:44 pm

pjifl wrote:I used 19 mm Marine ply for most of my good laminated stocks.
It gets very expensive making blocks 3 inch thick. I standardized on 3 layers of 19mm and made mine back in my TR days.
The old blanks I dragged out ended up as F class stocks and the wider fore end was achieved by gluing on some side strips afterwards where needed. One was experimented with by adding the strips using double sided tape and is still in that state. It allowed me to experiment with different angles to the sides of the fore end. Still wins shoots. A later stock had the strips epoxied on but the tape held foreene shot just as well. One day !!!

The clamping device was big and heavy and has been cut up to make room for more recent junk. No pics.

The copying machine still exists but is now out in the rain and never used. It was simply two spindles chain driven in unison but there was provision to invert the rotation of one spindle by repositioning an idler. Thus one template would produce either LH or RH stocks.

The roughing cutter could not finish deep reentrant curves and these had to be done later by hand. I used a larger vicious cutter for most of the shaping but a smaller ball end router bit for finer work on as much of the reentrant depths as possible. Thumb hole stocks needed a lot of hand finishing. A better machine setup would have done better.
Strips of flexible wood and plastic sheet with a strip of quality sanding paper just held on their face were invaluable for finishing surves along a stock. And pieces of PVC pipe of different diameters wit sand paper wrapped around them are flexible enough to shape around inside thumbholes. You will soon build up a collection of formers for the sandpapering. Belt sanding power tools of different sizes are invaluable at times but beware. They can ruin a stock very quickly.

Channels were done on a milling machine using endmills and large round cutters I made of exact sizes to suite some actions. Be careful with milling machines - wood chips and dust promotes rusting so after a run you have to take off any vises and other equipment for a thorough clean and oil. And there are a LOT of chips flying. The Copying machine ideally should not live in the same shed as machine tools.

All my latest stocks are now close to square in section. F class does not need snug personal fits (except maybe in a few spots) and holding and clamping square stocks is so much easier and they are faster to make and usually stronger. Beautiful stocks sell rifles and usually have tiny gaps and give poor cooling that give more trouble if for example a small pebble finds its way into the gap. In my opinion none of this has a place on a serious target rifle.

If you want to do a real job on laminated ply, which you can buy here https://sheetmaterialswholesale.co.uk/ staining shows nice patterns. You need to fill and sand quite a few times because of the different grain directions. End grain exposed in ply takes a LOT of filling coats. A lot of end grain shows everywhere. Like all quality furniture, the final repeated sanding and lacquering or whatever you use is the key to the end result. Staining is a two edged sword ! While it can produce a very nice finish, damage is almost impossible to make invisible.

One of the things that used to make me almost cry was to make a target stock of larger dimensions (especially width) than normal then have to cut a ridiculously deep slot for the bolt handle. Very much worse for bolt handles locking very low. It is a very weak spot in the stock. Subsequently I modified the bolt handles of my Omarks so the bolt locks with the handle horizontal. At least Barnard have that right.

Sorry - I am reminiscing. Much of this will be useless to you. Whether you make beautiful stocks or not it can be very rewarding.

Peter Smith.


Strength wise I'd use Titebond or epoxy. I've built two wooded ultralight aircraft (Fisher FP303) using both types of glue. In large area joints Titebond and in very small joint using T-88 epoxy. Either is plenty strong for a gunstock. There's nowhere near the stress on a gunstock as there is on a wing spar. I'd second the suggestion to use marine plywood, that's the only kind that uses full plugs in the core wood. AC grade stuff will have voids and holes are only filled with wood putty nowadays. Best bet if you really want to have an unusual looking stock with the maximum strength and warp resistance possible with wood is to use Aircraft Plywood. That is made of very thin laminations with no holes and glued to pass the one hour boiling test. It isn't cheap you would look great. Google Aircraft Spruce and Specialities to look at the stuff. The most important thing about laminating wood is the layup and clamping. You don't want a thick layer of glue between layers, just enough to insure wetting out the surface. A thin layer on each face of the joint is the best way. using a wide putty knife or some other such tool to spread the glue to eliminate any thick or bare spots is important. It's vitally important to provide even strong clamping. Use lots of clamps with strips of hardwood to spread out the pressure. You want to see some glue, not much but some squeeze out all around the layup which proves proper wetting out. With aircraft plywood you could design internal spaces like lightening holes to make the stock lighter without sacrificing strength. It would be necessary to keep the sides thick enough so as not to sand away through all the wood in the thinner areas. Sounds like an interesting project to me. With decent lamination there's no need for cross dowels, they would only help provide a path to wick up moisture. You've never seen those in a custom laminated stock. They aren't used in wooden aircraft propellers which are under a lot more stress than a gunstock.

Gyro
Posts: 764
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:44 pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: How to make laminate stock blanks?

#23 Postby Gyro » Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:12 pm

viewtopic.php?f=26&t=8567&p=70945&hilit=7+saum+bob+eager#p70945

If you want a shortcut to 'stiffness' add in some carbon fiber ...........


Return to “Equipment & Technical”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 22 guests