Berger 180gn VLD verses 168gn VLD

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Tim N
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Re: Berger 180gn VLD verses 168gn VLD

#31 Postby Tim N » Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:04 am

Hi Keith,
Thanks for the info.
We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training. Archilochos 680-645 BC

ecomeat
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Re: Berger 180gn VLD verses 168gn VLD

#32 Postby ecomeat » Tue Oct 27, 2015 7:20 pm

Tim,
I can add a little bit to Keith's info that might help if you haven't shot any 168s
I did a fair bit with a chrono on with my first 284 barrel, shooting the 168gr VLDs. I was working at the lower node, but the info is still relevant.
Using 2209 and Fed 210 GM primers , and a 30" Maddco barrel with a tiny jump of 0.003"to 0.005"
51 gr gave 2835 avg for 5
51.2 gr gave 2837 avg for 5
51.4 gr gave 2848 avg for 5
51.6 gr gave 2855 avg for 5
Then a few days later and about 6-8 deg hotter.....
50.8 gave me 2839 fps
50.6 gave me 2831 fps
50.4 gave me 2821 fps
So I loaded up at that 50.8 and headed off to Crows Nest Goombungee OPM and won my first ever OPM. It felt like winning the bloody lottery (even if I did choke on the last shot for a 4 :D which left the door open for Cam if he could shoot a 60-10 :D :D )
Then like a dickhead I got hold of my first 180 gr VLDs and never went back :oops:
So if you add the 0.5 gr as Keith suggested for a start , to the 50.8 or 51.0 you should be pretty close to where you are looking to be. Could you hurry up and let me know how it goes please ?.............I have got 3 boxes of the 168s left myself :D
Extreme accuracy and precision shooting at long range can be a very addictive pastime.

Tim N
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Location: Branxton NSW

Re: Berger 180gn VLD verses 168gn VLD

#33 Postby Tim N » Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:20 am

Thanks for the info Tony.
I won't have much time to try the 168s till after the Canberra shoot.
Guess you won't be there this year?
We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training. Archilochos 680-645 BC

ecomeat
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Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:07 pm
Location: Pimpama QLD

Re: Berger 180gn VLD verses 168gn VLD

#34 Postby ecomeat » Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:13 pm

Tim,
No, i wont be able to make Canberra unfortunately. Desperately looking for work so cant afford the luxury :cry: :cry:
I can add a bit more 168 gr data for a straight 284 for you
52.3 gr AR2209 Jammed 0.010" gave an average of 2919 fps for 5
51.5 gr AR2209 Jammed 0.010" gave an average of 2924 fps for 5, but with one odd slower one at 2905 fps
At the same time 51.7 with 180gr VLDs Jumped 0.006" gave an average of 2838 fps
Extreme accuracy and precision shooting at long range can be a very addictive pastime.

DenisA
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Re: Berger 180gn VLD verses 168gn VLD

#35 Postby DenisA » Mon Nov 02, 2015 11:01 pm

The Berger book is very lean with its load data powder charges. Using 168gn VLD's and AR2209 in a new barrel, where do you guys suggest is a good place to start ladder testing and watching pressure signs? 50.5ish gn?

DenisA
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Re: Berger 180gn VLD verses 168gn VLD

#36 Postby DenisA » Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:55 am

Is a .010" to .015" jam the area that you guys have had 168's shooting well?

I normally prefer to start powder charge testing with a .010" jam which has been immediately close to a successful free-bore with other VLD's I've used. The sweet spot has always finished off within .007" +/- of that.

Brad Y
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Re: Berger 180gn VLD verses 168gn VLD

#37 Postby Brad Y » Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:41 am

Dennis I used a 10 thou jam and it worked straight up \:D/
Image

DenisA
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Re: Berger 180gn VLD verses 168gn VLD

#38 Postby DenisA » Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:57 am

Brad Y wrote:Dennis I used a 10 thou jam and it worked straight up \:D/
Image


WHOAAA!! That's a bit cheeky!! I'm go'n .010" Hahaha.

Sensational mate.

williada
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Re: Berger 180gn VLD verses 168gn VLD

#39 Postby williada » Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:39 am

Denis, Brad can be rightly proud of that card but don't get sucked in. :lol: :mrgreen: Each barrel is different. Do your charge tests, free flight tests and neck tension test. Brad my lips are sealed.

DenisA
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Re: Berger 180gn VLD verses 168gn VLD

#40 Postby DenisA » Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:08 am

williada wrote:Denis, Brad can be rightly proud of that card but don't get sucked in. :lol: :mrgreen: Each barrel is different. Do your charge tests, free flight tests and neck tension test. Brad my lips are sealed.


Thanks David. I certainly will do as always. Thought I'd ask the question though. If I happen to come upon the tight node sooner than later it will save me some bullets which aren't in abundance at the moment.............. Not to mention chamber life.

I have an interesting setup on this next barrel David. It's not too out there, but I haven't seen it done the same way yet. If the results aren't too embarrassing I'll be looking forward to posting up some pics and results.

Testing should start in the next few weeks.

plumbs7
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Re: Berger 180gn VLD verses 168gn VLD

#41 Postby plumbs7 » Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:21 pm

Norm wrote:
plumbs7 wrote:Norm do you think that you will be able to push the lil 7-08 AI 168 to that 2950 fps ? If it's only 2900 fps then 10 mph wind drift is 54.8" drift . So 2" difference .

IMO 168's maybe better at 300 and even 500 yds in good conditions with the bullet " going to sleep sooner " .
Regards Graham.


Graham,

I am running right at 2900fps with my 7-08ai, Palma brass and 168gn VLD's. The load is not hot and case life is good, so there is room for improvement. In testing I have got to around 2950fps.
If I was using 180gn VLD's I would be running at about 2750fps which is not a hot load either but is at a practical speed for good case life. At 1000 yards the 168gn VLD's still retain a higher velocity than the 180gn VLD's so do get there a bit quicker.

With the popular 9 twist barrels the 168 VLD is stable, the 180gn VLD is right at an SG of 1.50 while the 180gn Hybrid can have a SG below 1.50 under certain atmospheric conditions so may have a slightly lower BC than published. This fits in with what Alan was saying about trying the Hybrids first then the 180gn VLD then the 168gn VLD.

If your barrel is not a true 9 twist and has a slightly slower twist then this could make a huge difference. Take a Button rifled barrel that may have 9.1 twist instead of a true 9 twist, it lowers the BC of a hybrid by 3% according to Berger's twist rate calculator.

I'm not sure just how accurate the twist rate of button rifled barrels is. I think that they can vary quite a bit from what is stamped on them. I received a 6mm button rifled barrel recently that was supposed to have an 8 twist barrel and was stamped as such. It shot terrible and when the twist was checked it turned out to be 9.5 twist. I had to use a much lighter weight projectile to get this barrel to shoot accurately.

Not sure what speed a .284win would get with the 168 VLD's but it should get to 2950fps I would say. Maybe someone could supply some load data. Now a 7mm SAUM with a nice cut rifled barrel in 9.5 twist, would get them rocketing along!

plumbs7
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Re: Berger 180gn VLD verses 168gn VLD

#42 Postby plumbs7 » Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:31 pm

Thought I would bring the subject back up again with Alan's win !
Now just plugged the ballistics into the trusty JBM
2800 fps 180 vld wind drift had a 10 mph wind drift in Moa of ( full value ) at 1000 yds of 5.5 Moa

168 vld is 5.36 Moa so close but but nowhere near a Saum of 4.86 Moa . But again , no amount of ballistics will save u from bad wind reading ! Or a unseen pick up or drop off!
Meaning the person behind the butt has a lot to do with it !

AlanF
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Re: Berger 180gn VLD verses 168gn VLD

#43 Postby AlanF » Mon Apr 18, 2016 10:35 pm

plumbs7 wrote:...But again , no amount of ballistics will save u from bad wind reading ! Or a unseen pick up or drop off!
Meaning the person behind the butt has a lot to do with it !


Agreed.

My calculations show that a good wind reader has a standard error of about 0.5mph when estimating normal wind changes during the course of a shoot. Obviously with wildly fluctuating wind speeds, that error increases significantly, but let's face it, on most ranges, that doesn't happen often, and even if it does, our time limits give you an opportunity to wait out the extremes.

So when comparing load performances in the wind, I like to look at the wind drift figure for 0.5mph, and its quite surprising how little difference it makes.

For example at 800yds, how much drift will a 0.5mph wind reading error cause?

168gn VLD G7 0.322 @ 3020 fps drifts 44mm
180gn VLD G7 0.350 @ 2950 fps drifts 41mm

So only 3mm difference between my load and a typical SAUM load!

Brad,
Jury is still out on brass life. In testing I fired one case 10 times and it still primed firmly, but maybe I fluked on a good case - as you'd know they vary in hardness.

Brad Y
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Re: Berger 180gn VLD verses 168gn VLD

#44 Postby Brad Y » Mon Apr 18, 2016 11:43 pm

Yes I hear you.

Primed and loaded 50 rounds of the 168gr load (though mine are only moving around 2900fps and used out to 600) and they are holding well primer wise though I didnt expect anything else. Probably up to 10 or so firings with the odd loose one, most others still nice and tight. I havent checked the other cases that have seen a couple of loadings above 2850 with 180's yet. But will probably start to anneal and rotate the batches back down after this weekends Wurgabup Prize shoot.

Back to the original topic, I will still favour the heavier bullets in windy conditions and long range so long as accuracy is equal. Without accuracy your not going to be in it, with the lighter bullets and good accuracy your always in with a chance so long as your wind reading is better than the rest.

plumbs7
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Re: Berger 180gn VLD verses 168gn VLD

#45 Postby plumbs7 » Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:06 am

Congrats Allen too , that would be ur 6 th Vic Queens?
Before Development squad I've only , like the rest of us , shot 1000 yds a handful of times ! Now we are doing 1000 yds very regularly ! My observations between 7 mm Saums and the standard 7 mm is . It doesn't make the wind coaches job any easier when Belmont is pumping!

What does count is a highly tuned 7 mm what ever the cal with brilliant waterline on the target !

I just don't want everyone mortgaging their houses to run Saums . If you can tune and afford to run one , that's great . You'll need a good supply of barrels and brass , powder !

We have a couple of Saums on our squad with both doing well and of coarse the " Rock stars" showing very good waterline !
But just be careful if ur on a budget!


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