Inaccurate scales..

[Pommy Chris]

The problem has been bugging me for a bit now. I have been using the RCBS Chargemaster dispenser / scale and I found I got better results dribbling manually the last 0.2 of a grain until the load was just the load I wanted. I thought I had found a solution and beat the inaccuracy problem, err it seems not!! I borrowed a friends rcbs scale and after I thought my load was correct I transferred the load to the other scale and maybe 6 out of ten times it was correct, but the rest of the time the load was 0.2-0.3 of a grain low, reweighing on the first scale confirmed this. For a recent comp I spent hours cross checking my loads not fun at all and it seems like I avoided some very inaccurate loads in doing so. Thanks to Josh Cox who put me on to a nice little scale that arrived today I am hoping these woes will be a thing of the past and initial testing looks very promising indeed but I want to make up some rounds before I comment further on that scale. Saturday I washed the cases from our prize shoot and in sorting the cases and I noticed one primer that did not look right at all. On further examination it was concave like on a bullet that has failed to go off or one with very low pressure. I checked the rest and it was the only one like this, on the 500 yard range at the OPM I was doing really well then suddenly a low 4 . It was perfect windage it just dropped out of the bottom it has bugged me ever since the shoot what had happened and annoyed me as that 4 cost me the range. Well looking at the primer evidence it looks like the chargemaster has had a bit of a fit and thrown me a very low load indeed, maybe a couple of grains too low so it is quite likely the case with the low pressure primer was that shot.
Anyone else experimented to see how accurate your scales are?
Dont get me started though on the RCBS 10 10 tests I did!!
Chris

[AlanF]

Sounds like you're having a ball Chris .

Seriously, if you're not confident about your scales, weigh each charge on two sets of scales. If they occasionally don't agree, then reweigh on both. If they often don't agree, replace or fix the culprit scales. Even with scales I'm very confident with, when loading for major shoots, I check weigh every charge. It adds about 5 or 10 seconds per round to the process, i.e. about 5 minutes for a day's shooting, well worth it for the peace of mind.

Alan

[Tim L]

Hi Chris,

I've just started using a Chargemaster and tip number one is to go to Maccas, steal a straw and cut about 2" of. Shove that 2" into the nozzle of the chargemaster. This woefully expensive mod stops the chargemaster dumping 3 or 4 kernals on that final cycle.

It's still not accurate enough though. I set it to the charge I want, then tip the whole charge into the old faithful set of scales. These weigh accurately but don't like to be trickled into. Doing it this way I find the chargemaster is spot on about 50% of the time but I'll add or remove on the light/heavy loads. The most mine has been out to date is 0.1gn high.

[fclass556]

Chris .. My Chargemaster is simply an expensive dispenser. I throw shy of what I need, drop that panful into my 10-10's for accuracy and manually trickle into that. Amazingly PRESTO !! .. most of my vertical problems were fixed. Time consuming .. YES .. but it negates the frustration on the range when those unexplained shots appear. Cheers Andy.

[Pommy Chris]

Hi Chris,

I've just started using a Chargemaster and tip number one is to go to Maccas, steal a straw and cut about 2" of. Shove that 2" into the nozzle of the chargemaster. This woefully expensive mod stops the chargemaster dumping 3 or 4 kernals on that final cycle.

It's still not accurate enough though. I set it to the charge I want, then tip the whole charge into the old faithful set of scales. These weigh accurately but don't like to be trickled into. Doing it this way I find the chargemaster is spot on about 50% of the time but I'll add or remove on the light/heavy loads. The most mine has been out to date is 0.1gn high.

Already have the Macca's mod but it does not help accuracy anyway as I trickle the last 0.2g myself. The problem is the Chargemaster lies. All is good for maybe 6 throws and then a wobbly one on my scale normally low. I know for sure this cost me a day aggregate and I want to make sure it does not happen again. I am really careful with my loading, but in 70 odd rounds only one was really really dodgy, but that really bad load cost me a range and a day aggregate.
I run a cattle business so I have not got all day to mess about loading, but I want the results to be accurate to. I have some time tomorrow so back in the loading room I will report how the new scales go.
Chris

[AlanF]

I run a cattle business so I have not got all day to mess about loading...

Well in that case our apologies for impinging on your precious time, and giving you a lot of useless advice...

[Pommy Chris]

I run a cattle business so I have not got all day to mess about loading...

Well in that case our apologies for impinging on your precious time, and giving you a lot of useless advice...

Not sure what I said wrong Alan or how I offended . I started this thread as I love our sport, but I cant spend all day loading and I thought this was a useful thread. When I bought the Chargemaster I thought it was great, as it reduced my time in the loading room, it went from hours to maybe an hour, the problem is for me and I am sure everyone who is not retired is time. The 10 10 rcbs took me hours as I ended up second guessing myself all the time was it on the line exactly or not? Some times of the year time is not an issue but I have just spent the last months clearing poisonous weed to release the cattle onto paddocks I need and the last thing I want to do when I get home sore and tired is load for hours and hours, but I want to win too on the range. For the Pennants I spent most of a day in the loading room cross checking my loads again and again to make sure the loads were correct, I am hoping the new scales will make things easier. I am convinced that loading is one of the most important things, if it is an important comp I am happy to spend all day in the loading room, but if I do I want my loads to be correct too and if they can be quick and accurate then all the better. For our OPM I was super careful and I still ended up with problems even if I got the grand aggregate.
All I am saying is my experiments show there are real inaccuracies with many of the scales we are using. We speak of powder loads 45.2. or 45.3, but what good is this if the scale is only accurate to 0.3 of a grain at best? If you are on the edge of a node you are out and drop a shot, even if you are in it still could cost you a point or two.
I think you have read my previous post wrong, all I was trying to say is I want an accurate quicker way to load and I cant understand your response as I dont think I said anything wrong. Before it was taking me hours and hours and I was finding errors so I am looking for a better way to reload better.
Regards
Chris

[AlanF]

Ok Chris, maybe my fuse was a little short on this. But most people at the sharp end of F-Class, many of whom are members of this forum, go to considerable lengths to get their ammo perfect, so referring to reloading as "messing about" is hardly likely to have us climbing over each other to give you some advice? . I would add that there are many shooters like yourself who have to balance other priorities with shooting.

[DannyS]

Chris, do you turn on your chargemaster well before using it?

[Pommy Chris]

Ok Chris, maybe my fuse was a little short on this. But most people at the sharp end of F-Class, many of whom are members of this forum, go to considerable lengths to get their ammo perfect, so referring to reloading as "messing about" is hardly likely to have us climbing over each other to give you some advice? . I would add that there are many shooters like yourself who have to balance other priorities with shooting.

Maybe I put myself wrongly, I dont mind spending time getting my ammo correct but I hate "messing about" because i cant trust my gear. I did mean to refer to loading as messing about I was talking about battling with reloading gear (scales) that I could not trust and messing about second guessing myself. If the 10 10 was slow but accurate I would be there front and center, but in my tests double checking my best attempts using the 10 10 the beam balance with two sets of digital scales shows the beam balance to be far from accurate. The friend who loaned me his scales wanted to load up 50 rounds for Sunday as he was testing two rifles. He used two digital scales after what I told him, he decided that if the two scales did not agree he would just tip back the powder and get the chargmaster to throw another load. He told me he had to throw 145 rounds to get his 50 bullets for Sunday, this is the sort of messing about I am talking about, the Chargmaster is just not accurate. I have a few farm things to do today but later on I should have time to make my bullets for the weekend. My plan is to use the Chargemaster as a thrower and as normal trickle up from 0.2 grains down, then use the new scales as a test scale and add powder or remove it if needed. This wont be super quick but at least I will be more sure that the loads are correct.
What scales do you use Alan?
Regards
Chris

[Pommy Chris]

Chris, do you turn on your chargemaster well before using it?

Hi Danny,
Yes I do, normally an hour before, also now I am very careful to get it dead level too as this seems to help but even with me trickling the last bit of powder it still throws wrongly normally low and 0.2-0.3 of a grain which is too much.
When I realized the problem I had a google and it seems I am not alone.
Chris

[Barry Davies]

Simple solution Chris.
Dice the chargemaster, open the purse strings and purchase an A & D FX120 I --all of your problems solved,
Yes, you will still have to trickle but everything prior to that is double fast, and you never have to worry whether the load is repeatably accurate or not -- it is.
After you have reloaded your ammo you will still have time to weigh your cases, primers and projectiles and have time left over for other things --seriously.
Barry

[Pommy Chris]

Simple solution Chris.
Dice the chargemaster, open the purse strings and purchase an A & D FX120 I --all of your problems solved,
Yes, you will still have to trickle but everything prior to that is double fast, and you never have to worry whether the load is repeatably accurate or not -- it is.
After you have reloaded your ammo you will still have time to weigh your cases, primers and projectiles and have time left over for other things --seriously.
Barry

Hi Barry,
I did look at that scale and also the ej-303 and I was going to buy it when Josh convinced me to give the cheaper one I bought a go. If I am not happy with its performance I will use the new one I just got for weighing cases and spend the money, but I want to give this a go first. I am not sure how well it will handle removing and adding small amounts of powder but I had a go yesterday with few different check weights and I swapped and changed them trying to trip up the scale and the variations were very few and very tiny. We will see later how it goes actually loading
Chris

[DaveMc]

+1 on Barry's comment but I will add a bit.

If you want a fast, accurate setup.

I use a cheap thrower (Lee) - it does not need to be perfect but get you just below the desired weight. Then on the A&D scale or higher quality use an omega 2 speed trickler. As Barry said you can load very fast and accurately. - I can easily load 100 in an hour this way.

BUT whatever system you use (and those that have been around a while have developed ways to deal with their chosen systems) I would highly recommend a double check system for the big comps and longer distances. Even with the A&D you can have human error (e.g. weigh 1 grain under and other) and mess it up on occasion. At least with quality scales you will only be fixing the very rare occurrence - not rethrowing every second load. Also on quality digitals the double check can be done on the same scale (with calibration weights of course) at very high speed. There are many ways to do this too.
1 example is to sort your shells on weight and then run quickly through the case and powder loads again (takes about 10 minutes per 100 - one in hand and one on scale- replace the one on scales with one in hand.)

In saying this - the balance beam can be accurate too. You need to get to know and tune your scales. make sure the knife point is sharp and sitting correctly and not hanging, check the pivot blocks etc etc. always trickle up to weight etc. I have seen people load extremely accurately on a 10-10 scale and double checked with precision lab balances to be +/- 0.02 grains.
(to put that in perspective +/- approximately 1-1.5 fps due to powder charge in the cases we use).

[Pommy Chris]

+1 on Barry's comment but I will add a bit.

If you want a fast, accurate setup.

I use a cheap thrower (Lee) - it does not need to be perfect but get you just below the desired weight. Then on the A&D scale or higher quality use an omega 2 speed trickler. As Barry said you can load very fast and accurately. - I can easily load 100 in an hour this way.

BUT whatever system you use (and those that have been around a while have developed ways to deal with their chosen systems) I would highly recommend a double check system for the big comps and longer distances. Even with the A&D you can have human error (e.g. weigh 1 grain under and other) and mess it up on occasion. At least with quality scales you will only be fixing the very rare occurrence - not rethrowing every second load. Also on quality digitals the double check can be done on the same scale (with calibration weights of course) at very high speed. There are many ways to do this too.
1 example is to sort your shells on weight and then run quickly through the case and powder loads again (takes about 10 minutes per 100 - one in hand and one on scale- replace the one on scales with one in hand.)

In saying this - the balance beam can be accurate too. You need to get to know and tune your scales. make sure the knife point is sharp and sitting correctly and not hanging, check the pivot blocks etc etc. always trickle up to weight etc. I have seen people load extremely accurately on a 10-10 scale and double checked with precision lab balances to be +/- 0.02 grains.
(to put that in perspective +/- approximately 1-1.5 fps due to powder charge in the cases we use).

Thanks Dave,
I actually have the Omega trickler it is what I use to trickle the last 0.2 of a grain on the chargemaster. 100 an hour is seriously quick, with the problems I have been having for the Pennants I was in the loading room most of the day which was no fun at all. I will see how the loading goes later, fingers crossed . Any issues and I will order the A and D.
Thanks again
Chris