Borescope evidence of the death of a very good barrel

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ecomeat
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Borescope evidence of the death of a very good barrel

#1 Postby ecomeat » Sat May 24, 2014 9:17 pm

My very good Bartlein barrel let me down big time at the NQRA Queens in Townsville a week ago.
After a discussion and inspection by Marty Lobert, Pete Smith, Mark Fairbairn, Alan Fraser and others, using Alans borescope at the conclusion of the event, i packed up and headed for home with my tail between my legs :? :( .
I then took a number of photos and videos through my brighter, focussable borescope (much easier said than done, when you are by yourself !!).
I have since added Cameron McEwan, Dave McNamara, Matt Paroz, Craig McGowan and Paul Janzo to the list of "Consultants" asking for their opinions.

I thought some forum members might appreciate a few photos of my evidence:
This is a photo of a brand new, unfired 7mm Bartlein blank, with canted lands :
Image

Note that the sloping (canted) sides of the land is very different to a more typical rifling. This is exactly what both of mine looked like when they were first chambered.

Here is a Maddco 7mm chambered in 284 Win that has had over 1400 shots fired through it
Image
The sharp corner right on top is rounded off, but the lands are still in perfect condition.

This a second Maddco with just over 700 shots through it:
Image
The sharp right angled corners are rounded off nicely, and it is a very low fouling barrel. It shot a 10 shot group of 8,25" at 1000 yards about 5 weeks ago.

Hopefully you will understand my horror when i found that the top of the lands in my best barrel looked like this :

Image

It is just like a jungle vine to look at through the 25 x power of the Hawkeye Borescope, and to get my camera to focus, i have to have the digital zoom right out to the maximum 10 x power, so remember that these images are effectively taken at 250 x power, or there abouts.

This what the muzzle of my problematical Bartlein looks like externally. You can see what looks like very clear, even tooling marks on the top of the lands
Image

But inside, through my Hawkeye, the "evenly spaced look" just cant be seen.
It looks like this, with very uneven ridges and gouges. They run with the rifling twist, and the borecope has to move approx 1/4" forward for each ugly ridge/vine/gouge to cross from the Groove, up over the top of the land.....that should be/used to be flat...and down the other angled side to the next groove
Image
In the photo above, you can see that the Groove is clean and completely unmarked, whereas the land looks like something out of a horror movie.
This is a short 24 sec video sequence, taken following a single Land for about 6", right in to the centre of the barrel. If you click on the still photo, it should open the Video, possibly in a seperate window
Image
Its enough to make a grown man cry :( :(
This is another ugly shot showing a perfect, pristine Groove on the Left, and Land on the Right
Image

Has anyone ever seen anything even vaguely resembling that ?? Non of my consultant experts ever have !! But there must be a lot of other shooters out there who have looked down barrels with a borescope.
It seems that i have three choices
A) Tomato stake
B)Try shooting 200-300 rounds without cleaning, in the hope that copper will fill in the ugly grooves, and eventually give each new projectile a relatively smooth path.
C) Try Moly coating barrel and bullets...again in the hope that the Moly or HBN would fill in the grooves, and smooth the path a bit

I have a second Bartlein that is also shooting very well at present, but at the 446 round mark, it is just starting to show faint signs through the borescope that it is headed down the same path as the first one.
In the following photo of one of the Lands, you can see the ugly "jungle vine" look just starting in two places. It is very faint, but it is definitely changing.
Image
This second Bartlein put the first 3 shots (out of the 10 shot group that we shoot in Heavy Gun at 1000 yards Benchrest) into less than half an inch at 1000 yards about 3 weeks ago, so it is definitely still a "shooter". I dont want to discuss shot 4, that i put just on 14" away :oops: :oops: :oops:
Alan Fraser has got over 1000 rounds through the Bartlein that he got from me, and says its the best barrel he has ever had, bar none. He shot the highest Individual score with it on one day of the two day FCWC Teams event that our magnificent Aussie F Open Team won the Gold medal at Raton NM last year.
His doesnt look anything like mine !!
This is another photo of the second Bartlein, showing the first signs, I think. There are three seperate visible marks
Image
This is a 22 sec video of the Maddco barrel with 1400 rounds fired, following a single Land for about 3" Dont forget that you need to click on the "still" to open all of the following short videos.
Image

This is a short video of the second Maddco, with some 712 shots fired. Its not really much different to the first Maddco with twice as many shots
Image

This is a 27 sec video of the second Maddco, with 712 shots, but this time staying in the same spot and just rotating the mirror
Image

So this new Bartlein blank is what mine should look like when rotating the borescope:
Image

But unfortunately, my "best" one looks like this, with 804 shots
Image

And its little brother looks like its headed down the same path. This is the 446 round "Bartlein 2" when rotating the borescope
Image

Hopefully some forum members might have found some information of interest in there amongst my pain.
I think I need a hug !
](*,) ](*,) ](*,)
Extreme accuracy and precision shooting at long range can be a very addictive pastime.

ratshot
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#2 Postby ratshot » Sat May 24, 2014 9:42 pm

Quick ? what cleaning rod are you using. cheers Paul.

Chopper
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#3 Postby Chopper » Sat May 24, 2014 9:56 pm

HAVE you got a video of the barrel before you shot it ? If not DO, Chop

Chopper
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#4 Postby Chopper » Sat May 24, 2014 10:02 pm

Next Time :) Chop

ecomeat
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#5 Postby ecomeat » Sat May 24, 2014 10:04 pm

Paul,
Have you got yours shooting yet ?
Mate i use coated Dewey rods, an aluminium jag that is perfect and hasnt got a mark on it, and a proper Delrin Bore guide.
I clean slowly and methodically, because i can.
The main thing to consider is that the two Maddcos have been cleaned with exactly the same rods, same jags, same solvents, same bronze brushes, same nylon brushes etc etc and same routine......and there is not the faintest mark/scratch/gouge on either of them. The Lands and Groove on both of the Maddco barrels are literally perfect.
It aint the cleaning !!
Cam McEwan will chamber his very shortly, and the one he onsold to Wild Dog will no doubt get chambered fairly soon too. Both of them should clock some numbers up pretty quickly, so it will be good to follow their progress.
I think the steel might be dodgy in both of mine, because it starts right on the junction of the Groove/Land, goes up and over the top and down the other side, ans stops at exactly the same point that it started from on the first side.......right on the point where the Groove starts. So the entire surface of the canted Lands is effected, but not a mark on the Groove.
There is no way a cleaning rod could do that, and especially with an Aluminium jag and coated rods.
Extreme accuracy and precision shooting at long range can be a very addictive pastime.

ecomeat
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#6 Postby ecomeat » Sat May 24, 2014 10:07 pm

Chopper wrote:HAVE you got a video of the barrel before you shot it ? If not DO, Chop


Chop,
I have got the one that Mark Fairbairn now has on video, so will follow its fate carefully, and can follow the second one's life from here on. Its got 446 on it right now.
Tony
Extreme accuracy and precision shooting at long range can be a very addictive pastime.

Brad Y
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#7 Postby Brad Y » Sat May 24, 2014 10:19 pm

Tony I told you to put garnet sand in other peoples ammo, not your own!

Sorry mate just trying to cheer you up a bit. That is honestly the scariest barrel I have ever seen. To me it's a tomato stake, unless you can lap some of the damage out. I hope you sort out the problem mate, maybe a few more maddco's?

Chopper
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#8 Postby Chopper » Sat May 24, 2014 10:34 pm

Eco, if you want to drive your self nuts , look at the RPM of a projectile :shock: a bit quicker than a car, by about 200,000 rpm, :shock: one more question ? how long does a barrel last ? in working time ? about 2 seconds , think about it ? Chop

ecomeat
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#9 Postby ecomeat » Sat May 24, 2014 10:39 pm

Brad Y wrote:Tony I told you to put garnet sand in other peoples ammo, not your own!

Sorry mate just trying to cheer you up a bit. That is honestly the scariest barrel I have ever seen. To me it's a tomato stake, unless you can lap some of the damage out. I hope you sort out the problem mate, maybe a few more maddco's?

Bloody scary, alright.
It's all making sense now, but I shot it at Beaudesert a week before NQRA Queens, with the MagnetoSpeed on, just to check my velocities, and was shocked to see that my load had LOST 95 fps on a coolish day. It had gone from my normal 2820 to 2725 fps.
I then had to fiddle about quite a bit in the next few days before flying to Townsville, trying to get the velocity back to the 2820 that was my "norm".
On a slightly warmer next day, it was averaging 2755, and I only had time to get it right on the 2820-2825 mark, before loading up 100 rounds and getting to the airport
It's pretty clear now that lots of missing metal inside meant a lot looser bore...less pressure... Lower velocity.
I finished Sydney Queens at just over 400 rounds. Finished ACT Queens at just over 600 rounds, and basically crashed and burned there and finished way down the list. I had come second to Rod Davies in the Lead Up using the second Maddco barrel, and expected/hoped to be somewhere on the Leaderboard in the Queens.
Over many drinks every night with Fairbairn, Paroz, Ferrara, Davies, Henry and Rigby, we managed to decide that I had over pointed the VLD projectiles that I shot in the Queens, and that accounted for my poor showing, but in hindsight, I only lightly cleaned it the last night of the Queens, and the bore scope was just a quick check for copper, and not a thorough inspection.
It then got cleaned and put away until a few weeks ago.
In hindsight, it had probably degraded pretty well by the end of Canberra, and I had seen changes, but didn't want to admit to myself that my "Queens Placegetter" was on the way out. But now, with just over 800 rounds down the tube, it's gone way downhill, very quickly.
Scary stuff !
Extreme accuracy and precision shooting at long range can be a very addictive pastime.

ecomeat
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#10 Postby ecomeat » Sat May 24, 2014 10:43 pm

Chopper wrote:Eco, if you want to drive your self nuts , look at the RPM of a projectile :shock: a bit quicker than a car, by about 200,000 rpm, :shock: one more question ? how long does a barrel last ? in working time ? about 2 seconds , think about it ? Chop

Damn good point, Chop.
I had never thought about it in those terms.
You are a genius !.........as well as a bloody Queens winner.
:shock:
Extreme accuracy and precision shooting at long range can be a very addictive pastime.

ecomeat
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#11 Postby ecomeat » Sat May 24, 2014 10:57 pm

I forgot to add that Beaudesert two weeks ago, at 300 yards it shot a 124/13 out of 126/21, inc a 66-9 in the second string..........so it's not idiotically inaccurate at point blank range like 300, but I dropped about 6 at the first NQRA range of 500 meters, and 4 or 5 at the first 600 meters that followed.
I will shoot locally at 500 yards tomorrow, and then don't intend to clean it for 200 or 300 shots, unless it starts to go really badly.
Those who know me well, will realize that doing so will be extremely difficult for me !! I get ribbed a lot for cleaning it at the end of every days shooting, so normally every 24-36 shots.
Extreme accuracy and precision shooting at long range can be a very addictive pastime.

Chopper
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#12 Postby Chopper » Sat May 24, 2014 11:04 pm

SO one little bit of shit in your barrel on the first shot fired can f#A good barrel I think with out the thought of shooting in dusty weather , ay what ? and what comes back in the muzzle , think and look at RPM , i say, how delicate they are ?Chop

DenisA
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#13 Postby DenisA » Sat May 24, 2014 11:08 pm

Hi Tony,

Great pics and vids, thanks for sharing.

You've said that the dodgy section is the lands. It may be that I'm not looking at it properly, but the dodgy part looks to me like its the grooves. I stand to be corrected, but in my experience, the grooves are normally narrower than the lands.

ecomeat
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#14 Postby ecomeat » Sun May 25, 2014 5:29 am

Denis,
Because of the massive optical magnification used to get the photos (the fixed 25 X of the Hawkeye , then the digital zoom on my little camera on full 10 x) basically everything is an optical illusion !!
Plus the actual tube and mirror that you are looking through is only about 20 calibre , looking inside a 284 bore, so the position relative to dead centre of the bore changes the focus and can give you a sort of "fish eye" effect.
In a video of rolling the mirror 360 degrees around the same spot, the raised lands will first appear "sunken" , then raised (which it is) then sunken again as it disappears from view and the next Land comes into view.
Alan Fraser has a "non focussing" bore scope, and doesn't have the 90 degree adaptor, so has made a little soft rubber cap with a cutout for the mirror, and that just fits neatly in the 7mm bore, therefore holding his dead center, and therefor in the best focus.
Have a look again at the photo of the muzzle, taken without the use of the bore scope. The Lands are very clearly raised.......and are the narrow part. Because its NOT through the bore scope, it's probably the only photo in all of them that isn't an "optical illusion" to some degree.
I will post a few more external (no borescope involved ) photos later this morning that show the light at different angles.
Also, if you look through your own Hawkeye at the leade section, just forward of the chamber where the 1 or 2 degree ramp left by the throat reamer allows the bullet to make gentle contact with the full effect of the Lands, it will pretty clearly define that the raised Lands are the narrow part. The Groove is untouched by the reamer at that point, and it's clearly the wider section (in relation to the Lands)
Extreme accuracy and precision shooting at long range can be a very addictive pastime.

ecomeat
Posts: 1137
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:07 pm
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#15 Postby ecomeat » Sun May 25, 2014 5:35 am

Chopper wrote:SO one little bit of shit in your barrel on the first shot fired can f#A good barrel I think with out the thought of shooting in dusty weather , ay what ? and what comes back in the muzzle , think and look at RPM , i say, how delicate they are ?Chop


So true, Chop......so damn true !
I love the calculation about an actual "lifetime" usage being maybe 2 seconds In total =D> :?: =D>
Extreme accuracy and precision shooting at long range can be a very addictive pastime.


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