Annealing necks ...good thing or bad thing?

[plumbs7]

Just throwing in the debate about annealing necks. Last weekend at Warwick the Rem just wasn't as happy( would have used the Omark if I had more rounds for it) Then at 600 I had every wind call correct but had 4 shots high then low into the five ring . I was lucky with a few others that just stuck in the 6 ring . The way I do it is bit of a plumbers way ( no good !) I stick the case into a case holder , which is in a drill . Spin the case at drill speed . Then fire up the Map Tourch and heat the necks . Count to 3 seconds or so and watch the neck get a bit red .
Problem is consistency and over doing it . Giving wild neck tolerances, giving wild extreme spreads .

I think a machine is the only way to go .
Has anyone had any luck with annealing ? How did u do it ? If u used a machine what was it and how much and where did u get it?

Most importantly , would u recommend adding it to ur case prep procedure and at what frequency ?
Thanks Graham. 😎

[Brad Y]

Annealing brass is nothing like annealing other metals. By letting them get a bit red that sounds like it could be overdoing it.

Best bet would be to look at a proper annealing machine like a bench source. Some people do it all the time, and maybe if I was world level benchrest shooting at long range I would do it too. But for f class generally its not necessary. Some do it after a certain numbers of firing- I think mainly for long range consistency. I would suggest the cases you have might be past it and need replacing. Then shoot them and dont bother about annealing until you have a heap of firings on them. See if your gun goes back to shooting well. If it does you have sorted the problem. If not, I reckon you have a problem with vertical that needs a little more attention than annealing necks.

[DenisA]

Graham, I anneal every firing unless I'm time poor with an event in which case I'll let them go a second firing without any disadvantage.

I do it a very similar way to what you've mentioned. My time frame for a 6BR is closer 9 seconds and 11 for a .284. It depend on the heat source that you use. With the .284 At about 6 seconds a heat ring about 5mm under the the shoulder starts to form (first sign) and then the neck goes golden at 11 secs. Golden neck is perfect. Left longer it goes red hot and overdone at about 13 seconds.

It needs a lot of practice to be REALLY consistent over a batch of cases and gives good results if done properly. If your not so consistent the difference can easily be felt and seen when seating bullets.
I've found that the colour change is critical to monitor while counting and the colour change is best analysed with shiney cases rather than tarnished cases. A lot of people hate this idea, but I very quickly spin each case in fine steel wool before hand. Helps with inspecting cases too.

It can easily be taken too far also.

The main advantage I see in it aside from extended case life and consistent neck tension is that when you size a .284Win neck to .310" for example, the neck stay at .310" until you reload it. Nothing annoys me more than having brass with multiple firings which sizes correctly but then slowly springs back .0005" over a week or so and causes the bullet to be too loose when you get around to reloading it. It's very obvious to me as I only like to run .0005" neck tension where I can.

If your going to do it I recommend practicing on old cases until your consistent. I also recommend over annealing and then really over annealing some old cases so that you can see the effect and easily recognise the limits.

Squash and turf the over annealed cases when done.

[Malcolm Hill]

Graham
To get the neck and shoulder looking like a new Lapua case don't heat the neck until it gets red- that is too hot. I do mine in a dark shed and heat them until I just see a change to a very slight glow and then quench them. With a little practice very good consistency can be achieved.The 223 is fairly sensitive to even neck tension and really benefits from the exercise, while the 308 is not quite so fussy.
Regards Malcolm.

[plumbs7]

Hi my mate Dennis ,
Sad not to catch up at Warwick! The brass I used was getting a little loose in the primer area. But was the same cases I used at Wandai which performed great .
Anyway I've got a whole new batch and started working them up. Also got my eyes checked and found that I'm nearly 42 ( ie pretty blind !) so new glasses on the way as well . Which I think also contributed !
I've obviously cooked the necks too much . Like you said " you can over do it !"
Good luck in Bundy , I'll look forward to seeing the scores ! 😊

Ps thanks Brad also and I totally agree!

[plumbs7]

Graham
To get the neck and shoulder looking like a new Lapua case don't heat the neck until it gets red- that is too hot. I do mine in a dark shed and heat them until I just see a change to a very slight glow and then quench them. With a little practice very good consistency can be achieved.The 223 is fairly sensitive to even neck tension and really benefits from the exercise, while the 308 is not quite so fussy.
Regards Malcolm.

Ok thanks mate😀

[ecomeat]

Graham,
No doubt that neck tension consistency can have a huge impact on long range accuracy, mainly because of the velocity variations that it can cause.
With my 284 Win, the difference in muzzle velocity taken over 10 shots with identical loads, except for 0.001" difference in neck tension, was 39 fps average.
I take my cases in to Wild Dog, and use a Benchsource annealing machine that Mark has got set up. It has two torches and variable timing, and because he does a lot himself, Mark has setting it correctly down to a fine art. It seems that when set perfectly, the inside of the case neck just starts to glow for a millionth of a second, just as it gets moved out of the flame. It begins ...and then it's instantly gone as the case is mechanically moved away from the flame.
Once done, old multiple firing cases (5-6 firings) that had shockingly inconsistent spring back before, behave like new brass.
I know that plenty of people use a single torch and a drill, or even a glove but after seeing it done in a $550 Benchsource machine set perfectly, I am buggered if I can see how they could possibly get consistency doing it by hand.
I plan on doing them every 2 or 3 firings in future, and when I can afford my own Benchsource machine, like Denis, would use it every time I reloaded a case.
When I took my very first lot to Wild Dog, I didn't realize that they should be perfctly clean inside and out, for the annealing to be done consistently. My trip in lasted about 5 hours longer than planned, as I had to use his Ultrasonic cleaner and get them all squeaky clean first, batch after batch. He has a lot of patience with clowns like me

[Steve N]

Dennis and Malcolm,

You both seem to have success with annealing with a drill. Do you clean inside the necks before as Tony has suggested?
Thanks for the tips and detailed descriptions of the methods you use.

Steve

[plumbs7]

Hi Tony ,
Wow ... Thanks mate for the input . I think u just summarised the " Well there's ur problem! " and gave some good tips too on case cleaning !
Yep if I do start doing it , I'll get a machine . As a plumber it's in my mind to anneal things till they are red hot! So it's a bit hard to get past that mindset!

At city v country u had some vertical at 300 yds . Did u ever find the culprit?

Regards Graham.

[Gadget]

Just get a machine from the states the boys over there have sent quite a few to OZ so the request is not unusual for them, they run about 6 to 700 delivered I think, I and my mates are very happy with the results.
Your mates will pay for the gas as they will want to run there brass through your machine..
Worked for me lol
Gadget

[aaronraad]

Graham,

I use a MAPP gas torch as well and both the rate of heating is notably higher than the more common propane/LPG torch.

http://prograde.espacecommunications.com/safety.html

It doesn't look like much on paper, but most plumbers I know go straight for the MAPP gas and won't 'stuff around' with LPG even if it is readily refillable. Just means your window for error smaller.

I was also recently contacted by another shooting friend that is designing a relatively inexpensive case annealing machine. He's sourcing a parts supplier at the moment, so I put forward my interest if he gets to the manufacturing stage. I'll post something when I have some firm information.

Cheers
Aaron

[plumbs7]

Thanks Aaron ! 😎

[DenisA]

Dennis and Malcolm,

You both seem to have success with annealing with a drill. Do you clean inside the necks before as Tony has suggested?
Thanks for the tips and detailed descriptions of the methods you use.

Steve

G'day Steve,

Once I've fired my cases, I deprime, ultrasonic clean (no carbon inside the case afterwards) and then a quick spin in the wool. So yes, Inside the necks are spotless before annealing. I always anneal prior to shoulder bumping, neck sizing or any further case prep.

[ned kelly]

G'day all,
I'm just a bit curious as to why you anneal after every firing? I've got cases here that I've never annealed and my various target rifles still shoot more accurately than I can drive them.
I've never annealed my 6PPC cases and they last the life of a barrel (2500-3000rds @ 20 cases per barrel)
Like I said, just curious.
Thanks
Cheerio Ned

[ecomeat]

At city v country u had some vertical at 300 yds . Did u ever find the culprit?
Regards Graham.

Graham, Yes......found the culprit and had absolute confirmation at the NQRA Queens in Townsville last weekend !! My first Bartlein is "dead" (the one that I shot at Sydney Queens last year to get beaten on X's by Rod Davies)!:( . It only has 804 shots thru it.
I will do a post on it asap, with borescope pictures, comparative borescope pictures of other barrels at different stages and hopefully some borescope video.
Watch this space.........